Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[dybmh]

Isaiah 53
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

Verse 7 is the deal breaker:

He was oppressed, but he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; he was brought like a lamb to the slaughter, and like a sheep, that is dumb before its shearers, he did not open his mouth.​

Twice it says he suffered in silence. Compare that to Matthew 27:

Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,h lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”i​

​

When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He is calling Elijah.” One of them quickly ran and brought a sponge. He filled it with sour wine,j put it on a reed, and held it up for Jesus to drink.k​

​

But the others said, “Leave Him alone. Let us see if Elijah comes to save Him.”l​

​

When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit​

​

Twice it says Jesus cried out in a loud voice. So no, he cannot be the suffering servant in Isaiah 53. That one simply doesn't work.

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

For this one the deal breaker is verse 8 immediately preceeding this.

And I will encamp around my house against any army, against any who passes by and returns; and no oppressor shall pass through them any more; for now have I seen with my eyes.​

​

This ^^ hasn't happened yet. Israel is still the target military attack. Since verse 8 hasn't happened yet, verse 9 hasn't happened yet either.

And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son.

There's multiple issues here. The clearest deal breaker without looking at the Hebrew is also in the verse preceeding it. Verse 9:

And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem, and I will pour out ...​

​

So, again, this hasn't happened yet. The nations that seek to destroy Israel have not been destroyed. In context, it's the other nations who are doing the piercing. Look back to verse 2. A seige is happening on Jerusalem. I know it's difficult to accept, but, if it were God who was pierced, it would say: "... and they will mourn for ME, and grieve bitterly for ME as one grieves for a firstborn son."

Here is a better translation:

10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.​

​

If you don't believe me, go look at the Hebrew yourself and try to find the words "the one" in it. It doesn't exist.

So you have context showing this hasn't happened yet, you have the end of the verse not saying "grieve for him" not "grieve for me", and the words "the one" missing in the Hebrew.

 

[rosends]

This explaining away of Isaiah 52/53 hearkens back to the Jewish sages of the Middle Ages.
What doctrine of Moses permits the Jewish nation to atone for the sins of other Jews by dying in their stead?
Why would God allow Jews who have never sinned to die horrible deaths?
And have any of these Jews been resurrected?

If you read he entire of the section, you would see who the speaker is and what he believes. The foreign kings are giving THEIR understanding of what has happened to the Jewish nation. THEY believe that the nation suffered because of sins that THEY committed. Follow the pronouns and the subject, and keep track of who is speaking and whose opinion it is and you will realize that. The Jewish nation was identified explicitly as the servant and the kings couldn't believe that they suffered when they didn't deserve it and then God helped them.

Here -- this should help Jesus as an antithesis to Passover

 

[PruePhillip]

Verse 7 is the deal breaker:

He was oppressed, but he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; he was brought like a lamb to the slaughter, and like a sheep, that is dumb before its shearers, he did not open his mouth.​

Twice it says he suffered in silence. Compare that to Matthew 27:

Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,h lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”i​

​

When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He is calling Elijah.” One of them quickly ran and brought a sponge. He filled it with sour wine,j put it on a reed, and held it up for Jesus to drink.k​

​

But the others said, “Leave Him alone. Let us see if Elijah comes to save Him.”l​

​

When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit​

​

Twice it says Jesus cried out in a loud voice. So no, he cannot be the suffering servant in Isaiah 53. That one simply doesn't work.



For this one the deal breaker is verse 8 immediately preceeding this.

And I will encamp around my house against any army, against any who passes by and returns; and no oppressor shall pass through them any more; for now have I seen with my eyes.​

​

This ^^ hasn't happened yet. Israel is still the target military attack. Since verse 8 hasn't happened yet, verse 9 hasn't happened yet either.




There's multiple issues here. The clearest deal breaker without looking at the Hebrew is also in the verse preceeding it. Verse 9:

And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem, and I will pour out ...​

​

So, again, this hasn't happened yet. The nations that seek to destroy Israel have not been destroyed. In context, it's the other nations who are doing the piercing. Look back to verse 2. A seige is happening on Jerusalem. I know it's difficult to accept, but, if it were God who was pierced, it would say: "... and they will mourn for ME, and grieve bitterly for ME as one grieves for a firstborn son."

Here is a better translation:

10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.​

​

If you don't believe me, go look at the Hebrew yourself and try to find the words "the one" in it. It doesn't exist.

So you have context showing this hasn't happened yet, you have the end of the verse not saying "grieve for him" not "grieve for me", and the words "the one" missing in the Hebrew.

He did not answer his critics. His words were those minimal to express his concern for his mother and to plead his case before God. Even David mentioned him saying 'My God my God why....' Now, did those perfect Jews who suffered, died and rose again - did THEY remain in silence?

Re Zechariah - the coming Messiah of the Jewish people has not happened yet, clearly. It speaks of His coming and how the Jews will mourn when they realize it's the SAME MAN who rode upon the colt, the SAME MAN they pierced.

 

[dybmh]

He did not answer his critics. His words were those minimal to express his concern for his mother and to plead his case before God. Even David mentioned him saying 'My God my God why....' Now, did those perfect Jews who suffered, died and rose again - did THEY remain in silence?

Whom ever Isaiah is speaking about in 53, they are silent at the slaughter. That's verse 7.

Re Zechariah - the coming Messiah of the Jewish people has not happened yet, clearly. It speaks of His coming and how the Jews will mourn when they realize it's the SAME MAN who rode upon the cold, the SAME MAN they pierced.

That's an interesting idea. And I'd like to discuss it, but, it does require an adjustment of the verse you brought.

"And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son."

And they will look on who? Is it "me" or is it "him"?

 

[PruePhillip]

Whom ever Isaiah is speaking about in 53, they are silent at the slaughter. That's verse 7.



That's an interesting idea. And I'd like to discuss it, but, it does require an adjustment of the verse you brought.

"And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit
of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced,
and they will mourn for him as one mourns for
an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son."

And they will look on who? Is it "me" or is it "him"?

Alternating between first, second and third party is a common biblical practice.

 

[dybmh]

Alternating between first, second and third party is a common biblical practice.

It is? That's odd. All in the same verse? Can you give an example or two? Please?

 

[PruePhillip]

It is? That's odd. All in the same verse? Can you give an example or two? Please?

Jesus does this on occasion. He alternates from himself in the third person as 'the son of man' and the same verses where he himself is that person.

 

[rosends]

This explaining away of Isaiah 52/53 hearkens back to the Jewish sages of the Middle Ages.

Just a side note about this misstatement. The understanding that the reference in Isaiah is to the nation, and not an individual is not from the Middle Ages. It precedes that by a large degree.

Origen, who was alive from the end of the 2nd century CE into the 3rd century wrote (CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsum, Book I (Origen) in chapter 55) that he had a disputation with Jews. When he (Origen...well before the Middle Ages) quoted Isaiah regarding the identity of the servant,

"my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations"

So, no, this has been a Jewish understanding for a long, long time, as evidenced by Origen.

 

[PruePhillip]

Just a side note about this misstatement. The understanding that the reference in Isaiah is to the nation, and not an individual is not from the Middle Ages. It precedes that by a large degree.

Origen, who was alive from the end of the 2nd century CE into the 3rd century wrote (CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsum, Book I (Origen) in chapter 55) that he had a disputation with Jews. When he (Origen...well before the Middle Ages) quoted Isaiah regarding the identity of the servant,

"my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations"

So, no, this has been a Jewish understanding for a long, long time, as evidenced by Origen.

Well, that's interesting, and I will give you point. Thanks.
However, Israel is not a sinless servant who dies for the sins for Israel - this description better fits Jesus, just as other Isaiah verses do. Same for the Psalms 22 and 69, and Zechariah 9 and 12, and Daniel who spoke of the Messiah coming to his temple while it still stood, but was 'cut off' and died for the sins of his people.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus does this on occasion. He alternates from himself in the third person as 'the son of man' and the same verses where he himself is that person.

Sorry, I missed this comment until just now. We're heading into the holiday, so, it will be a few days till we can continue the discussion.

 

[rosends]

Well, that's interesting, and I will give you point. Thanks.
However, Israel is not a sinless servant who dies for the sins for Israel - this description better fits Jesus, just as other Isaiah verses do. Same for the Psalms 22 and 69, and Zechariah 9 and 12, and Daniel who spoke of the Messiah coming to his temple while it still stood, but was 'cut off' and died for the sins of his people.

The text says who it is about. It also says whose opinion it is. You can't fight what the text says so instead you decide that it applies to something else. All this does it show your ignorance of the text.

 

[YoursTrue]

Verse 7 is the deal breaker:

He was oppressed, but he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; he was brought like a lamb to the slaughter, and like a sheep, that is dumb before its shearers, he did not open his mouth.​

Twice it says he suffered in silence. Compare that to Matthew 27:

Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,h lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”i​

​

When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He is calling Elijah.” One of them quickly ran and brought a sponge. He filled it with sour wine,j put it on a reed, and held it up for Jesus to drink.k​

​

But the others said, “Leave Him alone. Let us see if Elijah comes to save Him.”l​

​

When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit​

​

Twice it says Jesus cried out in a loud voice. So no, he cannot be the suffering servant in Isaiah 53. That one simply doesn't work.



For this one the deal breaker is verse 8 immediately preceeding this.

And I will encamp around my house against any army, against any who passes by and returns; and no oppressor shall pass through them any more; for now have I seen with my eyes.​

​

This ^^ hasn't happened yet. Israel is still the target military attack. Since verse 8 hasn't happened yet, verse 9 hasn't happened yet either.




There's multiple issues here. The clearest deal breaker without looking at the Hebrew is also in the verse preceeding it. Verse 9:

And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem, and I will pour out ...​

​

So, again, this hasn't happened yet. The nations that seek to destroy Israel have not been destroyed. In context, it's the other nations who are doing the piercing. Look back to verse 2. A seige is happening on Jerusalem. I know it's difficult to accept, but, if it were God who was pierced, it would say: "... and they will mourn for ME, and grieve bitterly for ME as one grieves for a firstborn son."

Here is a better translation:

10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.​

​

If you don't believe me, go look at the Hebrew yourself and try to find the words "the one" in it. It doesn't exist.

So you have context showing this hasn't happened yet, you have the end of the verse not saying "grieve for him" not "grieve for me", and the words "the one" missing in the Hebrew.

Not opening up his mouth doesn't have to mean he literally did not "open his mouth." To cry out in a loud voice -- he did not open his mouth in a belligerent or objectionable way to those arresting him. Or to his God. He didn't fight the arrest. He asked why he felt God had forsaken him, as a forlorn child might to his father who loved him. To speak wouldn't mean he spoke abusively or objectionably against what he knew would be the outcome. He was human and suffered pain and had a unique outcome.

 

[PruePhillip]

Not opening up his mouth doesn't have to mean he literally did not "open his mouth." To cry out in a loud voice -- he did not open his mouth in a belligerent or objectionable way to those arresting him. Or to his God. He didn't fight the arrest. He asked why he felt God had forsaken him, as a forlorn child might to his father who loved him. To speak wouldn't mean he spoke abusively or objectionably against what he knew would be the outcome. He was human and suffered pain and had a unique outcome.

Yes, this is what King David foresaw in Psalm 22, My God my God why have you forsaken me?' Jesus was to bear our own sin, and experience our own punishment.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus does this on occasion. He alternates from himself in the third person as 'the son of man' and the same verses where he himself is that person.

Yeah, I'm familiar with those. But that's not the same as "Alternating between first, second and third party is a common biblical practice."

What we're talking about would be something like: "I am the way, the truth, the light. None come to the Father except through HIM" It doesn't work switching from I to HIM.

We can move on if you wish. Basically the point is, So far there are 2 issues reducing the liklihood that this verse means what you;re saying it means. 1) The verse has to be taken out of context. In context the people of Jerusalem are the ones who are pierced. 2) In your translation, God has been pierced, but the people mourn for some other being.

The 3rd issue is: Why would the Jewish people mourn for Jesus? Didn't he need to die? Can you imagine what would have happened if the Jewish people accepted him? Death and sin would not have been conquered? There would have been no gospel sent to the nations? God sent him to be sacrificed, right? That means the Jewish people did precisely what God intended? So why would we mourn?

 

[dybmh]

Not opening up his mouth doesn't have to mean he literally did not "open his mouth." To cry out in a loud voice -- he did not open his mouth in a belligerent or objectionable way to those arresting him. Or to his God. He didn't fight the arrest. He asked why he felt God had forsaken him, as a forlorn child might to his father who loved him. To speak wouldn't mean he spoke abusively or objectionably against what he knew would be the outcome. He was human and suffered pain and had a unique outcome.

Yes, this is what King David foresaw in Psalm 22, My God my God why have you forsaken me?' Jesus was to bear our own sin, and experience our own punishment.

Sorry friends, he cannot be the suffering servant if he cried out loudly to God, "Why have you foresaken me?" That is the opposite of silent like a lamb to the slaughter. Sure, a person can soften the prophecy, and lower their standards. But that weakens any other scriptural argument one makes. There are people out there that claim Christ has returned. And in order to "prove" it they reduce the expectations and make the prophecies more acheivable. If people do that with the suffering servant, then other people can do it too.

 

[101G]

Sorry friends, he cannot be the suffering servant if he cried out loudly to God, "Why have you foresaken me?" That is the opposite of silent like a lamb to the slaughter. Sure, a person can soften the prophecy, and lower their standards. But that weakens any other scriptural argument one makes. There are people out there that claim Christ has returned. And in order to "prove" it they reduce the expectations and make the prophecies more acheivable. If people do that with the suffering servant, then other people can do it too.

we must disagree with that assessment.
"of God forsaking the son", this is bared out in Isaiah chapter 59, read this chapter good. the word forsaking, (forsook), means leave, the present of the Father in that body came out of the son, because the sins of the whole world will be laid on him. This word forsook is interesting. Forsook , or forsaking is the act of, or the allowing of one to be sacrifice. Note, to clearly see this, another word, or some synonyms words for forsook is, renounced, relinquished, “sacrificed”. Sacrificed is the word we are looking for. The Father, the Ordinal First, allowed that body to be scarified. For the Lord God did provide for himself a sacrifice, (a lamb). Genesis 22:8 "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together”. And who is this LAMB?, God in flesh, his OWN ARM, (Isaiah 63:5). clearly, John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". John 1:35 "Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"
and this is bared out in Hebrews 9:26. "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself”. God cannot dwell in an unclean place, and the scripture is clear, God will never forsake you, nor leave you, read Hebrews 13:15. and reading the whole chapter of Isaiah, the entire book is worth reading, but Jesus the lamb of God, was made/design to suffer, even the death of the cross, (HUMAN FLESH). Philippians 2:5 " Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". And upon that death, it released, or relinquished, (that's what forsook means), the full power and attributes of God in human form. but First, he must SUFFER, he tasted DEATH for all men. Mark 9:12 "And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought."

where is it WRITTEN? answer, Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

here "Sorrows" means "SUFFERING". this is plain as DAY in the Bible, just as afflictions, grief, or despised is another word for forsaken. it's all there in Isaiah chapter 53, the SUFFERING SERVANT.

101G.

 

[rosends]

Genesis 22:8 "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together”.

except it doesn't say this. It reads
אֱלֹהִ֞ים יִרְאֶה־לּ֥וֹ הַשֶּׂ֛ה

no "provide" just "show or see" (and it is "the sheep/goat" not "a lamb").

Also, where do you get "SO they went" when the text has "AND they went"?

 

[dybmh]

we must disagree with that assessment.
"of God forsaking the son", this is bared out in Isaiah chapter 59, read this chapter good. the word forsaking, (forsook), means leave, the present of the Father in that body came out of the son, because the sins of the whole world will be laid on him. This word forsook is interesting. Forsook , or forsaking is the act of, or the allowing of one to be sacrifice. Note, to clearly see this, another word, or some synonyms words for forsook is, renounced, relinquished, “sacrificed”. Sacrificed is the word we are looking for. The Father, the Ordinal First, allowed that body to be scarified. For the Lord God did provide for himself a sacrifice, (a lamb). Genesis 22:8 "And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together”. And who is this LAMB?, God in flesh, his OWN ARM, (Isaiah 63:5). clearly, John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". John 1:35 "Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"
and this is bared out in Hebrews 9:26. "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself”. God cannot dwell in an unclean place, and the scripture is clear, God will never forsake you, nor leave you, read Hebrews 13:15. and reading the whole chapter of Isaiah, the entire book is worth reading, but Jesus the lamb of God, was made/design to suffer, even the death of the cross, (HUMAN FLESH). Philippians 2:5 " Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". And upon that death, it released, or relinquished, (that's what forsook means), the full power and attributes of God in human form. but First, he must SUFFER, he tasted DEATH for all men. Mark 9:12 "And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought."

where is it WRITTEN? answer, Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

here "Sorrows" means "SUFFERING". this is plain as DAY in the Bible, just as afflictions, grief, or despised is another word for forsaken. it's all there in Isaiah chapter 53, the SUFFERING SERVANT.

101G.

I understand all of this. But Isaiah 53:7 is being ignored. The same idea is reflected in verse 10 as well.

 

[101G]

except it doesn't say this. It reads
אֱלֹהִ֞ים יִרְאֶה־לּ֥וֹ הַשֶּׂ֛ה

no "provide" just "show or see" (and it is "the sheep/goat" not "a lamb").

Also, where do you get "SO they went" when the text has "AND they went"?

well check these sites and see what they say. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/berei****-genesis-chapter-22

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8217

and BIBLE HUB, with the Hebrew. Genesis 22:8 Hebrew Text Analysis

Also, where do you get "SO they went" when the text has "AND they went"?

did they ... Go? ,... Went? or did they stay right where they were? ... thank you... (smile) .... LOL. Oh dear......

101G.

 

[101G]

I understand all of this. But Isaiah 53:7 is being ignored. The same idea is reflected in verse 10 as well.

Isaiah 53:7 "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."

was not he, the Christ, Shiloh, injuriously treated by the Jews? did they not used him very ill, (and desired a murderer). and handled him very roughly; he was oppressed and afflicted, both in body and mind, with their blows, and with their reproaches, of false charges; he was afflicted, indeed, both by God and men. because he was provided for this being in a human body. he too our place.

now, verse 10. Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."

there it is, his "seed", and not "seeds" as in many but only ONE. meaning God, for remember he, JESUS, is God's OWN ARM, which you missed in verse 1, per Isaiah 63:5.

yes, that's God in the ECHAD of HIMSELF just as he said in Genesis 22:8, which also your friend rosends cannot understand either. the Lamb of, of, of, of, God, and no one else was provided for the sacrifice on the cross. hence the forsaking was Predestin of God himself to be in a Glorified body in person as he was with Adam and Eve in the Garden before the Fall. ...... and in the NEW CREATION, he will b e swith us for ever, and ever. supportive scripture, Revelation 22:3 "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:" Revelation 22:4 "And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." HE WHO SIT ON THE THRONE IS THE Lord JESUS, JUST AS HE SAID IN Isaiah 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

this is just too easy not to understand.

1012G.