Ishmael is not a prophet

[gnostic]

It is only in Islam (and perhaps in Baha'i Faith too; I am not too sure about this) that Ishmael acquired the status of a prophet.

In the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh) and in the Bible Ishmael does not meet the requirement of prophethood. God promised Abraham that he would be father of some nations (kingdoms), but it does not give any indication that Ishmael is a prophet.

He could be considered the leader of his clan, and that's about it.

He did not speak to god nor communicate through god's agent, eg angel. If anyone deserved to be called prophet, it would be Ishmael's mother, Hagar. Twice, the angel or god spoke to her.

The first time, she ran away, but a divine intervention, encourage her to remain with Abraham and Sarah. The 2nd time, she left good, banished because of Sarah.

All it say about Ishmael (after leaving Abraham's party) is that he grew up to become a hunter, and settled in the wilderness of Paran (south of Jerusalem and Bethel, probably including the part of the Sinai peninsula), he came for Abraham's funeral and he died at age 137. The only thing we are given in the Genesis is that it listed his clan or descendants.

It doesn't say anything about going to the Arabian peninsula, and finding Mecca with Abraham.

 

[arthra]

I think it's interesting that Ishmael is viewed in such negative terms because the verses in scripture actually accord Ishmael a high station...

How many personages in the Bible were named by the Angel of the Lord?

See Genesis 16:11

"You shall call him Ishmael... " Ishmael means "God has heard".

The part of the verse that talks about Ishmael as a "wildass of a man" could also be translated that he was a swift runner... and that he was a helper to his fellows and not as translated his hand is against others..

Follow the possible meanings of the Hebrew words in common lexicons such as Strongs and you will see variations in the meaning of the actual words used.."Yad" for hand can mean "against him" but can also mean "My hand is with someone"...so the text doesn't really support a negative connotation.


Also how many persons did God Himself promise to prosper...note that when Abraham asked God to remember Ishmael, God promised He would make Him a mighty nation... Genesis 17:21

Yes I think it's true that the descent of prophets came through Isaac for Israel..but God also made a Covenant with Abraham and His descendents. See Genesis 17:11 and that would include His sons from Keturah His third wife.

The Ishmaelites were related to the Midianites that Moses united with... after His exile from Egypt. So Jethro his father-in-law was more a helper to Moses than any kind of hindrance.

And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.

(King James Bible, Genesis 25:17-18)

Something else that the Bible tells us about Ishmael... He was a hundred thirty seven year old when he died... but there is something that may have been forgotten by some and that is when he died it was

"in the presense of all his brethren"

so that would imply that Isaac as well as the sons of Keturah were also present when he died...

- Art

 

[ProudMuslim]

In Encyclopedia Biblica it is clearly stated (under the heading 'Paran') that Paran is Arabia and quite fascinatingly in the same reference Eusebius and Jerome are quoted to have said that Paran is in Arabia southward where the Saracens (arbs) are ACHAA

So Paran can very well be what was later known as Mecca.

I think the fact that Ishmael (PBUH) is considered the father of 'Arabised Arabs' is a fact on its own that Ishmael lived among the Arabian tribes.

Now i am sorry but have you decied that Ishmael (PBUH) is not a Prophet because Jews and Christians don't think so? Are we supposed to also believe Jesus Christ (PBUH) is the son of God and that Abraham was hebrew because Jews and Christians think so?

Funny how you jump everytime someone presents something in Qur'an/Islam as a fact and start giving lectures how that is not a fact but its blind faith etc... but here you are actually saying that Ishmael is not a Prophet of God because your forefather's holy book does not say so!

 

[Azakel]

but here you are actually saying that Ishmael is not a Prophet of God because your forefather's holy book does not say so!

Could not the same be said of you and your forefather's Holy book and when you say that Bahá'u'lláh is not a Prophet of god, what else to you have to go on saying he isn't other then you forefather's holy texts?

 

[Buttons*]

Now i am sorry but have you decied that Ishmael (PBUH) is not a Prophet because Jews and Christians don't think so? Are we supposed to also believe Jesus Christ (PBUH) is the son of God and that Abraham was hebrew because Jews and Christians think so?

Aside from the fact that Yeshua was actually a Jew by birth?

 

[ProudMuslim]

Could not the same be said of you and your forefather's Holy book and when you say that Bahá'u'lláh is not a Prophet of god, what else to you have to go on saying he isn't other then you forefather's holy texts?

But i didn't start a thread with 'Baha'u'allah is not a prophet of God', did i?

I didn't dictate Baha'u'allah stance on others based on my Islamic view. In Islam Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) is the last prophet. I understand Bahais have different view and i respect it. That's the end of the story for me.

Gnostic claims he is neither a Christian nor a Jew but he is basing his "stance" on Ishamel (PBUH) on their holy book. That's hypocrisy.

Gnostic refuse to take "facts" mentioned in holy books as facts, but now apparently it is a fact that Ishmael (PBUH) is not a prophet!

I think Gnostic have weird fixation with Islam. That is obvious from his posts.

 

[ProudMuslim]

Aside from the fact that Yeshua was actually a Jew by birth?

And how is that related to my sentence?

 

[gnostic]

So Paran can very well be what was later known as Mecca.

It's a possibility, but not likely. All the maps I have come across about the Biblical times, indicated that the Wilderness of Paran to be in the middle of the Sinai Peninsula, not the Arabian Peninsula:

• (north-) west of the Gulf of Aqaba,
• north of Mt Horeb (Mt Sinai) and of the Desert of Sin,
• south of the Wilderness of Shur,
• southwest of Beersheba and the Wilderness of Zin,
• and west and southwest of Edom.

Right at the top end of the Gulf of Aqaba, is the town called Ezion-geber (or Elath). On the eastern shore of this Gulf, is the land of the Midians.

Moses stopped there twice. And the Wilderness of Paran is west of this town. The Israelites spend a large part of their wandering (Exodus) in this wilderness. The Israelites certainly didn't go further into the Arabian Peninsula then that.

The point I am trying to make is that Mecca is about 900 kilometres from Ezion-geber. The length of one end of the Gulf (Aqaba) to where the Gulf join the Red Sea is a little over 150 km.

As to the myth that Abraham going that far south, to build a house (Kabba) in Mecca, I seriously don't think so. The Bible only indicated that Abraham's most southern jouney was to northern Egypt during a famine, and for that he would have mostly likely travel through northern Sinai, perhaps hugging the coast of Mediterranean: through the Wilderness of Zin and Wilderness of Shur. There were no reasons for Abraham to so far southeast. And certainly not to build a house.

And the Bible only stated that Ishmael moved south of Beersheba into the Wilderness of Paran. His descendants may have move south along east coast of the Red Sea into the Arabian Peninsula, but nothing say that Abraham and Ishmael made such journey. Abraham was living in southern Canaan at that time, when Sarah (and God) insisted that Hagar and his son to leave him.

 

[Buttons*]

And how is that related to my sentence?

I'm just wondering how you can claim that Yeshua wasn't Jewish - even if Christians (and most people) believe he was.

 

[gnostic]

Gnostic claims he is neither a Christian nor a Jew but he is basing his "stance" on Ishamel (PBUH) on their holy book. That's hypocrisy.

Actually I said that the only Islam that Ishmael have acquired prophethood. I did not say that the Bible or the Tanakh say that HE IS NOT A PROPHET. What I did say that these 2 scripture gave no indication that he was a prophet.

In the Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh) and in the Bible Ishmael does not meet the requirement of prophethood. God promised Abraham that he would be father of some nations (kingdoms), but it does not give any indication that Ishmael is a prophet.

All it say that he would be a leader of a clan, and ancestor of a nation. Nothing indicated that he was a prophet.

Had he been a prophet, it would have written something about him being one. Instead, he was only known for his hunting skill, when he grew up.

What are the requirements of being a prophet?

To give prophecy?
To be able to communicate with god or his angels?

None of this is found in the bible. What we do have is that Ishmael's mother have spoke with god or angel.

• When she ran away, an angel spoke to her. And this happened when she was pregnant, so clearly the angel couldn't have spoken to Ishmael.
• The 2nd time she left Abraham, she had abandoned her son (because she couldn't bear to watch her son die), but god to her and provided water.

It's not hypocrisy. It is using your head and doing the maths: it's scholarship.

Can you give me a single example of god or angel speaking to Ishmael in the Genesis (of either the bible or tanakh)?

Now unless you can prove to me that he is a prophet in the Bible/Tanakh, I will concede to you.

 

[Zardoz]

Now, this is just my personal interpretation, but the term 'prophet' in the way you define it only applies after the events of the Torah. Ishmael and Issac are Patriarchs, which is of a higher status. JMHO.

...The first time, she ran away, but a divine intervention, encourage her to remain with Abraham and Sarah. The 2nd time, she left good, banished because of Sarah...

..."in the presense of all his brethren"

so that would imply that Isaac as well as the sons of Keturah were also present when he died...

There is a substantial, but minority, opinion that Keturah is actually Hagar, with a new name (as Sarah received a new name) who Abraham marries after the death of Sarah. In any event, Issac and ishmael had good relations at that time. May they in the future as well.

 

[gnostic]

Yes, I would call Ishmael a "patriarch", which means head of family or clan, but not prophet. I would agree to patriarch, but not prophet.

Many of those who lived before the time of Moses were patriarchs.

Patriarch, of course, don't mean they were prophets. Shem and his descendants before Abraham were all patriarchs, but I don't think they were all prophets. God seemed to favour Shem above Shem's brothers, but there were no indication that he was a prophet. Esau can be considered to be patriarch of the Edomites.

Clearly god have shown favour to Ishmael, and promise Abraham and Hagar that Ishmael's descendants would have a nation, however that means leadership, hence a patriarch.

After Moses and Joshua, there were other forms of leadership - the Judges. It is clear that these Judges were not all prophets. The only I am 100% certain is that Samuel was both judge and prophet. Samson was a warrior of great strength, which was gift from God, but I don't think he was a prophet; his prayers were answered, but nothing indicates that it prophet-y.

However, I think that Muslims equate patriarchy with prophethood.

 

[ProudMuslim]

I'm just wondering how you can claim that Yeshua wasn't Jewish - even if Christians (and most people) believe he was.

I am still baffled at your question. In which sentence of mine did you deduce that Yeshua was not a Jew?

 

[ProudMuslim]

It's a possibility, but not likely. All the maps I have come across about the Biblical times, indicated that the Wilderness of Paran to be in the middle of the Sinai Peninsula, not the Arabian Peninsula

Ok so you are saying it not likely to be the Arabian Peninsula, and i am saying it is likely to be the Arabian Peninsula.

. The Israelites spend a large part of their wandering (Exodus) in this wilderness. The Israelites certainly didn't go further into the Arabian Peninsula then that.

How did you know that?

The point I am trying to make is that Mecca is about 900 kilometres from Ezion-geber. The length of one end of the Gulf (Aqaba) to where the Gulf join the Red Sea is a little over 150 km.

I see your point, but it is not supported by other view that states Paran is actually in Arabia.

As to the myth that Abraham going that far south, to build a house (Kabba) in Mecca, I seriously don't think so.

And i seriously think so.

The Bible only indicated that Abraham's most southern jouney was to northern Egypt during a famine, and for that he would have mostly likely travel through northern Sinai, perhaps hugging the coast of Mediterranean: through the Wilderness of Zin and Wilderness of Shur. There were no reasons for Abraham to so far southeast. And certainly not to build a house.

There is a reason to go southeast because it was there he left his son Ishmael and his mother Hagar. Also that "house" is a religious place of worship.

And the Bible only stated that Ishmael moved south of Beersheba into the Wilderness of Paran. His descendants may have move south along east coast of the Red Sea into the Arabian Peninsula, but nothing say that Abraham and Ishmael made such journey. Abraham was living in southern Canaan at that time, when Sarah (and God) insisted that Hagar and his son to leave him.

Bible says Ishmael lived in Paran and like i have explained previously Paran can very well be Mecca.

 

[gnostic]

In Encyclopedia Biblica it is clearly stated (under the heading 'Paran') that Paran is Arabia and quite fascinatingly in the same reference Eusebius and Jerome are quoted to have said that Paran is in Arabia southward where the Saracens (arbs) are ACHAA

:sorry: but what would Eusebius and Jerome know?

They are writing centuries after the Genesis was ever completed. They are theologists, not historians and geographers. Christian writers in the 3rd and 4th centuries can hardly be credited for brains. Many of these idiots haven't been outside of the provinces where they lived. Some think that Babylon is in Egypt, that's how good their geography are.

Moses and the Israelites actually had to live in Paran and that was in the Sinai Peninsula.

Can you provide evidence that Paran is not in the Sinai Peninsula?

 

[ProudMuslim]

Actually I said that the only Islam that Ishmael have acquired prophethood. I did not say that the Bible or the Tanakh say that HE IS NOT A PROPHET. What I did say that these 2 scripture gave no indication that he was a prophet.

Therefore the followers of these 2 scriptures (and you) may don't consider Ishmael (PBUH) is a prophet, while Muslims do.

All it say that he would be a leader of a clan, and ancestor of a nation. Nothing indicated that he was a prophet.

so?

Had he been a prophet, it would have written something about him being one. Instead, he was only known for his hunting skill, when he grew up.

Not necessarily. Do either the Torah or the Gospels mention anything about Buddha or Krishna being prophets? Do they mention them to begin with? Well Bahais believe in their prophecy. Does that make them wrong? Not at all.

What are the requirements of being a prophet?

To give prophecy?
To be able to communicate with god or his angels?

None of this is found in the bible. What we do have is that Ishmael's mother have spoke with god or angel.

• When she ran away, an angel spoke to her. And this happened when she was pregnant, so clearly the angel couldn't have spoken to Ishmael.
• The 2nd time she left Abraham, she had abandoned her son (because she couldn't bear to watch her son die), but god to her and provided water.

So using your "math", Hagar is a prophet, right?

But you see neither the Torah nor the Gospels say that about her.

It's not hypocrisy. It is using your head and doing the maths: it's scholarship.

It is hypocrisy sweetheart, when you deny the same thing on others in the name of "things mention in the Qur'an are not facts, are just made up stories by Muhammed etc...". And now you use the Bible to extract your "facts"!

Can you give me a single example of god or angel speaking to Ishmael in the Genesis (of either the bible or tanakh)?

I have not read all of the Torah or the Gospels. But i have read the Qur'an and it says that Ishmael (PBUH) is God's prophet and therefore he is.

Now unless you can prove to me that he is a prophet in the Bible/Tanakh, I will concede to you.

But here is the thing: I don't care if Ishmael (PBUH) is not considered a prophet in the previous scriptures, to us the Muslims that will not change a thing. Like i have asked you before, must i believe now that Jesus Christ is God's son and that Abraham (PBUH) is a hebrew? Do you have an answer or are you going to continue in circle and ask the same question about Ishmael stance in the Bible!

In case you are wondering, my holy book is the Qur'an and not the Bible. So if you are going to question my stance on a person, you better ask me reasons from my book.

 

[gnostic]

Hey, Proud Muslim, we are getting sidetracked with the geographical location of Paran.

Would you like me to start a new topic about Paran? Or do you want to start one?

 

[Buttons*]

Are we supposed to also believe Jesus Christ (PBUH) is the son of God and that Abraham was hebrew because Jews and Christians think so?

I'm SO SORRY! I misread this sentence. I skipped ahead and I guess I saw "Are we supposed to believe that Jesus Christ ... was hebrew because the Jews and Christians think so?" I feel so terrible now because I misread your sentence. Please forgive me!

 

[ProudMuslim]

I'm SO SORRY! I misread this sentence. I skipped ahead and I guess I saw "Are we supposed to believe that Jesus Christ ... was hebrew because the Jews and Christians think so?" I feel so terrible now because I misread your sentence. Please forgive me!

LOL, no you are not forgiven :ignore:

Hey, Proud Muslim, we are getting sidetracked with the geographical location of Paran.

Would you like me to start a new topic about Paran? Or do you want to start one?

I don't think it will be a useful thread since its is known that the place is unknown. It will be like beating a dead horse. That is my opinion but of course you can do whatever you want and why do i have a feeling you will go ahead with this new thread idea....

 

[gnostic]

I have just found out that I did a similar topic, last year, to this one...but I didn't remember. :sorry1:

The one I did last year the subject was titled - "Is Ishmael a prophet?" to this year "Ishmael is not a prophet."

One is questioning, and the other (this present topic) I seemed more certain. The old topic didn't have any resolution, and we got sidetracked.

Anyway, I want to get back to the point.

I recall reading somewhere (in the Qur'an) that list Ishmael as a prophet, but I don't remember where.

But no where in the Judaeo-Christian scripture say that he is a prophet. A leader of a new clan or future tribe, yes. A patriarch for a new tribe, yes. But as a prophet, such thing is not mentioned.

After Ishmael's exile, he only turn up for Abraham's funeral or burial, and we also get a list of his descendants.

It does not say anywhere he talk to god or any angel, but is clear that his mother talked to the angel, twice, during her moments of crisis.

Why is Ishmael named a prophet in the Qur'an, but not his mother?