ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

[KWED]

You did not give exegesis, so I was not addressing you.

Here is an important point that might help you with all this.
If I repeat the exegesis of renowned and authoritative Islamic scholars, the fact that I might not be fluent in Classical Arabic does not negate what they say on an issue.
What you are doing there involves a hatful of fallacies in addition to your usual ones.

 

[Augustus]

Is there a tl;dr?

Nah, if you'd prefer to remain ignorant on the topic that's up to you.

"Rationalists" and fundies are the least likely to consider new evidence that shows them to be wrong anyway

 

[firedragon]

Here is an important point that might help you with all this.
If I repeat the exegesis of renowned and authoritative Islamic scholars, the fact that I might not be fluent in Classical Arabic does not negate what they say on an issue.
What you are doing there involves a hatful of fallacies in addition to your usual ones.

Since you are a Classical Arabic expert, could you please tell me what "Jaariyathu Alabu" means?

 

[firedragon]

o, what makes you more qualified to comment on that passage than Ibn Abbas, Al Jalalayn, Ibn Kathir and All Maududi?

Okay. So tell me.

1. What does Ibn Abbas's tafsir say?
2. What is his tafsir methodology?

Go ahead.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

People like Khamenei play a double standard. On one hand if anyone in Iran says, they don't want Khamenei or the system Welayat Faghih, they will punish them and imprison them. On the other hand many calls him Imam, a title originally meant for the infallibles and chosen ones of God.

When Prophet Muhammad appeared, He appointed Ali after Himself. He also named all other Imams till the 12 Imam, by their Names. Ali, Hassan, Hussein, etc.
But after prophet passed some others whose name was not on the list claimed to be successor, such as Ummar, and Uthman.
People like Khomeyni and Khamenyee did the same. Their name is not on the list. No Hadith exist that says Khomeyni or Khamenei as representative of Imam Mahdi, or so. Thus, Khomeyni and Khamenyee did the same thing as Umar and Uthman. Claiming authority while God did not choose them. I hope you can see that, and I hope people who follow then become aware of this. This is how I see it.

 

[KWED]

Prior to appealing to authority,

That is not an appeal to authority. It is called "deferring to authority" and is a very common and legitimate practice.
You really do struggle with your informal fallacies, don't you?

tell me, what is the Classical Arabic word for prepubescent girls? Since you are an expert in Classical Arabic, this should be easy for you.

Oh dear. More intellectual dishonesty. Where have I ever claimed to be an expert in Classical Arabic? Are you going for the full set of dodgy debate tactics?

 

[muhammad_isa]

They specifically referred to girls too young to have menstruated yet..

No .. that's how you interpreted the verse.
Women miss periods for various reasons.
You are insisting that your understanding is implied.

I never take "but the scholars say" as evidence of anything.
If a past so-called scholar ruled that you have to believe that the world is flat,
he is wrong. Simple as that !

There would be if you had a convincing case you could present. You're posting to a skeptical audience that is open to you making a compelling case and teaching them something new..

Some people might be wanting to learn something new.
Many others are working for the cause of satan.
..and satan will use any trick he can think of to mislead others.

And a third is busy trying to disqualify opinions he doesn't like with claims that others don't know enough Arabic to have an opinion. None of you are making arguments at all, much less fallacy-free chains of reasoning leading to sound conclusions. You all just give your opinions about what Islam is and then repeat them when they are countered with conflicting evidence. Nothing less has persuasive power on the skeptics' field..

That is a valid argument.
One poster showed us a number of different translations of the verse in question, and they didn't all appear to be suggesting what you are saying.
If there is any doubt, it is necessary to go back to the classical Arabic text.

 

[KWED]

So you accept ahadith as valid history?

Only in the context of Islamic belief. They cannot be considered "historically accurate" in general terms.

All of them or just the ones reported in multiple ahadith?

Again, in the context of Islam, I accept the authenticity and reliability that has been assigned by the appropriate scholars.
Do you?

BTW, you forgot to say whether you accept the hadith about Aisha's age or not.
(Don't worry, I know that you can't, because it would put you between that Islamic rock and a hard place that so many apologists of your method find themselves between. )

 

[firedragon]

Oh dear. More intellectual dishonesty. Where have I ever claimed to be an expert in Classical Arabic? Are you going for the full set of dodgy debate tactics?

Okay. So you are not an expert, but you know others are not as well. No worries, so does that mean you dont know whats the word for prepubescent girls? If you dont know its not a problem, just say so.

 

[firedragon]

Only in the context of Islamic belief. They cannot be considered "historically accurate" in general terms.

Then why do you quote it as historically accurate?

 

[firedragon]

Again, in the context of Islam, I accept the authenticity and reliability that has been assigned by the appropriate scholars.
Do you?

So according to which scholar is this hadith authentic, and which scholar did not accept it at all, and which scholar said Its Sahih but not Sarih?

Who narrated this hadith, and what are the problems with the narrator?

Why is Muslim different to Bukhari?

Why is it not in the Golden chain?

What are other scholars saying about this hadith?

If you dont know, you can ask.

 

[KWED]

Okay. So tell me.
1. What does Ibn Abbas's tafsir say?

another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

2. What is his tafsir methodology?

Irrelevant.
His conclusion is clear.
Do you want me to repeat the conclusions of the others?
"those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age"
"the same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation."
"They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age"

Go ahead.

Interesting that you keep ignoring these and just fixate on red herrings, straw men, and other fallacies.

 

[KWED]

No .. that's how you interpreted the verse.

No. It is how several of Islam's most authoritative scholars interpret it.
"those who have it not because of young age" - Ibn Abbas
"those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age" - Al Jalalayn
"the same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation." - Ibn Kathir
"They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age" - Ala Maududi

 

[firedragon]

another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months.

Thats not the tafsir of Ibn Abbas. Dont read the website, get the actual tafsir.

Irrelevant

Who said its irrelevant. If you dont know how the understanding works, try not to make commentary like that. If you dont know, say you dont know. Obviously you dont know.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..So we are back to the "all those Classical Arabic speaking, authoritative scholars are wrong..

Are they Arabs, or have decent knowledge of classical Arabic?
..or are they just repeating something they read from another Asian "scholar"?

Are you saying that you only accept god's word if it makes sense to you?

Yes
Despite your belief that we are all following blindly.

The passage does is not referring to them. It talks about those who have not started menstruation..

(65:4:12)
wa-allāī
and the ones who CONJ – prefixed conjunction wa (and)
REL – feminine plural relative pronoun
الواو عاطفة
اسم موصول
(65:4:13)
lam
not NEG – negative particle
حرف نفي
(65:4:14)
yaḥiḍ'na
[they] menstruated. V – 3rd person feminine plural imperfect verb, jussive mood
PRON – subject pronoun
فعل مضارع مجزوم والنون ضمير متصل في محل رفع فاعل
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are just quoting stuff without proper knowledge,
and making arguments in order to make Islam look evil.

There is nothing in the above that suggests "those who have not yet experienced their menses" imo.
It is an interpretation. It makes no sense to a Muslim that you can have a sexual relationship with a minor.
G-d does not teach us to abuse women.
We are instructing in the Qur'an to treat them kindly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In any case, the verse is in a series of verses talking about divorce.
The verses are basically saying that you must observe the iddat, whether a woman has her menses or not.
It is not implying that you can have a sexual relationship with a girl before she reaches puberty.

One can marry a girl who is underage, but the girl does not "join" her husband until after puberty.

 

[Link]

@Link

People like Khamenei play a double standard. On one hand if anyone in Iran says, they don't want Khamenei or the system Welayat Faghih, they will punish them and imprison them. On the other hand many calls him Imam, a title originally meant for the infallibles and chosen ones of God.

When Prophet Muhammad appeared, He appointed Ali after Himself. He also named all other Imams till the 12 Imam, by their Names. Ali, Hassan, Hussein, etc.
But after prophet passed some others whose name was not on the list claimed to be successor, such as Ummar, and Uthman.
People like Khomeyni and Khamenyee did the same. Their name is not on the list. No Hadith exist that says Khomeyni or Khamenei as representative of Imam Mahdi, or so. Thus, Khomeyni and Khamenyee did the same thing as Umar and Uthman. Claiming authority while God did not choose them. I hope you can see that, and I hope people who follow then become aware of this. This is how I see it.

No they didn't do the same. You conjecture exactly like Khawarij conjecture with "rule is only for God" to refute Imam Ali (a) can judge to his wisdom.

Leader is a word, it can be used for a soccer team leader. It can be used for community local leaders. Do you call Captains of soccer team usurpers of Imams (a)?

Simon (a) was not chosen by God, was a disciple of Isa (a) but he succeeded Isa's (a) social and political leadership while Elyas (a) was the witness and leader from God during that time.

 

[KWED]

Then why do you quote it as historically accurate?

Yet more intellectual dishonesty or stupidity.
I clearly said... "In the context of Islamic belief".

It's baffling that you seem to think these tactics can, in any way, strengthen your position.

 

[KWED]

So according to which scholar is this hadith authentic, and which scholar did not accept it at all, and which scholar said Its Sahih but not Sarih?
Who narrated this hadith, and what are the problems with the narrator?
Why is Muslim different to Bukhari?
Why is it not in the Golden chain?
What are other scholars saying about this hadith?
If you dont know, you can ask.

Still can't bring yourself to come down on one side of the fence.

As a matter of interest, do you make these demands of Muslims who cite hadith in praise or support of Allah, Muhammad, etc"
No, of course you don't.
Your intellectual dishonesty is as deep as it is obvious.

 

[KWED]

Are they Arabs, or have decent knowledge of classical Arabic?
..or are they just repeating something they read from another Asian "scholar"?

Seriously? You are dismissing the likes of Ibn Abbas and Ibn Kathir as inauthentic?

You've completely lost the plot now.

There is nothing in the above that suggests "those who have not yet experienced their menses" imo.

WADR, your opinion is nothing when compared to several of Islam's greatest scholars.
I guess you are from the Brother Link school of Islam. You just make up whatever stuff suits you.

G-d does not teach us to abuse women.

Why do you think a marriage approved by god is "abuse"? Very strange.

In any case, the verse is in a series of verses talking about divorce.

No. It is talking about how long a new husband must wait before having sex with a woman who is not a virgin.

It is not implying that you can have a sexual relationship with a girl before she reaches puberty.

It absolutely does imply that, as confirmed by authoritative scholars. If Muhammad hadn't married a 6 year old, the issue might not have had such milage. You'd think Allah would have warned him.

One can marry a girl who is underage, but the girl does not "join" her husband until after puberty.

If she hasn't had sex, why is there an iddah?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You seem confused.
Either women should be allowed to wear what they want, or they should have to wear what they are told.
Which is it?

That is dependent whether they are a believer or not.
G-d tells us in the Qur'an that we should marry a believing woman.
It is her choice to believe that she should dress modestly.
When it comes to those that you are responsible for, it depends on their age.

When a woman is responsible for herself, and is no longer dependent on her parents, she can do what she please.
That doesn't stop a person giving her advise.