ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

[muhammad_isa]

Oh, so you don't agree with me. You think that invading other countries and subjugating and exploiting the population is acceptable.

I didn't say that..

"G-d does not love those that start aggression."
-Al Qur'an-

I notice that you never quote that. You only quote the things that suit your agenda .. without proper knowledge, I might add.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Quran states that Allah sometimes interferes with our free will and determines whether we can believe or not.
"Whomever Allah sends astray, no one can guide him"

Well, according to you then, the passages that say that we have been given free-will are contradictory.
Are you claiming that millions of Muslims can't understand it, and only a few like you can?

I have already explained it. I won't explain it again, unless you specifically ask me to.

 

[KWED]

Wrong. Nothing is pointless just because the future might be known by some "agent".

You can still enjoy the ride, but it is pointless thinking that you can affect it.

The past is fixed by our own actions, and the future is no different.

So you accept that the future is fixed, but you believe we can change it?
Good luck explaining that one.

 

[KWED]

I didn't say that..

I asked if you agreed that "Imperialist colonialism is wrong, whoever the perpetrators or victims are". You declined to agree and instead said that it depends.
However, it is not to late to voice your opposition to Imperialist colonialism and the subjugation of conquered people.

"G-d does not love those that start aggression."
-Al Qur'an-

So Allah did not love Muhammad for starting military action against Mecca, or the subsequent caliphs who further expanded the Islamic empire. Interesting.

I notice that you never quote that. You only quote the things that suit your agenda .. without proper knowledge, I might add.

I have repeatedly stated that Islam is a religion of peace and violence, of tolerance and intolerance, of equality and discrimination.
Do you agree, or will you continue to insist on your entirely fallacious rose-tinted, cherry-picked version?

 

[KWED]

Well, according to you then, the passages that say that we have been given free-will are contradictory.

Correct. It is understandable though. People make mistakes. Muhammad just didn't really think it through. Also bear in mind that it was "revealed" piecemeal, in response to events, so it's hardly surprising that such contradictions crept in.

Are you claiming that millions of Muslims can't understand it, and only a few like you can?

It's just cognitive dissonance. Accepting the contradiction would mean accepting your belief is false. Hardly rocket science.

I have already explained it. I won't explain it again, unless you specifically ask me to.

But your explanations doesn't make sense - "Allah misguides people so they can't believe and creates people for hell, but they still have free will to believe".
If I haven't got that right, please elaborate.

 

[stevecanuck]

I didn't say that..

"G-d does not love those that start aggression."
-Al Qur'an-

I notice that you never quote that. You only quote the things that suit your agenda .. without proper knowledge, I might add.

During the revelation of surah 2, Mohamed embarked on a campaign that changed not only the nature of Islam, but the course of history, when he started a war with the pagans of Mecca by raiding their trade caravans. For the first time, Muslims were instructed to take lives by fighting "fee sabil Allah (in the cause of God)". The pagans tried to protect their caravans, but, despite having superior numbers, were defeated by the Muslims in the Battle of Badr (CE 624). This sparked a seven year war that ended in complete victory for the Muslims and control of Mecca and the Kaaba. These raids were the first action in a pattern of aggression that would escalate and eventually turn into the campaigns of conquest that resulted in the creation of a vast Islamic empire within only 100 years of Mohamed's death.

Muslims dispute this. They claim the raids were justified based on persecution they suffered at the hands of the pagans before the Hijrah. What they do not, and can not, claim is that systemic physical abuse of Muslims occurred during that period. There are no verses in the Qur'an that speak of harm inflicted; only of mockery and of refusal to obey Mohamed and to abandon their long-held beliefs and gods. They also do not dispute that the 'first arrow' was fired by a Muslim named Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas when his party was sent to raid a caravan (although the raid was eventually called off). Rather, they celebrate Sa'd as a folk hero.

For Mohamed to order military action "in the cause of God", he was faced with being able to claim that a clearly offensive strike would be justified and in compliance with God's wishes. The Qur'an would therefore have to supply him with two revelations that were not so much as hinted at in all 86 Meccan surahs - a direct command to fight, and moral justification for taking lives. To that end, the following two verses were conveniently revealed:
- 190 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors".
- 191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression (fitnah) are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith".

Verse 190 provided the order to fight, but only in self defense, which by itself did not justify an attack against the pagans, as there is no indication in the Qur'an that any Muslims had been killed. Therefore, Mohamed could not accuse them of being "those who fight you". He immediately solved that problem in 191 by providing a work-around that moves the goal posts in such a vague and open-end manner as to designate virtually any unbeliever an enemy. It breaks down as follows:
- "And slay them wherever ye catch them" removed any doubt that blood-letting had been introduced to Islam.
- "and turn them out from where they have turned you out" is a clear reference to Mohamed's claim that he was forced to flee Mecca.
- "for tumult and oppression (fitnah) are worse than slaughter" introduced 'fitnah' as a catch-all crime against Islam that, in the space of one verse, effectively dropped self defense to second place as a reason to make war.

The importance of adding 'fitnah' to self defense as a basis for which Muslims can justify attacking non-Muslims cannot be stressed enough. It is described in various English translations as any action that impedes the practice of Islam ("suppresses faith"). Six of the seven translations given in The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation define 'fitnah' as tumult, oppression, or persecution, whereas the seventh, by Muhammad Sarwar, goes so far as to translate it as "the sin of disbelief in God". The only 'crimes' the Meccans had committed against Islam were to "deny God's signs" (refuse to adopt Islam), and to 'desecrate' the Kaaba by using it for polytheist prayer. But, thanks to verse 191, that became enough to warrant an attack.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you accept that the future is fixed, but you believe we can change it?
Good luck explaining that one.

You are ignoring what has fixed the past when you say that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But your explanations doesn't make sense - "Allah misguides people so they can't believe and creates people for hell, but they still have free will to believe".
If I haven't got that right, please elaborate.

Of course you've got it wrong.
Our deeds have consequences. The more evil you are involved with, the deeper you sink into darkness .. and vice-versa.
It doesn't mean that a person can't change. It all depends on whether they WANT to change.

It is very similar to a heroin addict or an alcoholic. It is not impossible to stop, but the deeper you go, the harder it becomes.

 

[KWED]

You are ignoring what has fixed the past when you say that.

Once again, you will have to explain what you mean because that does not appear to address the issue - ie. that a fixed future cannot be changed.

Do you think we can change the past?

 

[KWED]

Of course you've got it wrong.
Our deeds have consequences. The more evil you are involved with, the deeper you sink into darkness .. and vice-versa.
It doesn't mean that a person can't change. It all depends on whether they WANT to change.

WADR, it is you who is getting it fundamentally wrong.
You are ignoring the vital point that "Whoever Allah misguides, none can guide them".

You are assuming that we always have the ability to change the future, but according to the Quran, Allah misguides some people so they cannot change, and even creates some people for hell. It is under these conditions that you have failed to explain how free will is possible. Once again, you have merely asserted that we have free will.

It is very similar to a heroin addict or an alcoholic. It is not impossible to stop, but the deeper you go, the harder it becomes.

A poor analogy. I will improve it...

It is like a heroin addict who does not know someone is putting heroin in their daily vitamins. Their addiction is not their fault and they are not even aware of it. They can only come off it when the other person stops interfering.

 

[KWED]

You are ignoring ...

I have noticed that you are ignoring the bulk of my points.
Any chance you could address them, as I address every one of yours?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Once again, you will have to explain what you mean..
...
Do you think we can change the past?

What do you think I mean?
No, of course we can't change the past .. it is fixed.
What do you think fixed it?
Were we able to make decisions and influence its outcome or not?
If not, why not?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Their addiction is not their fault and they are not even aware of it. They can only come off it when the other person stops interfering.

There you go with your "G-d is a person" analogy yet again.

You interpret "Whoever Allah misguides, none can guide them" as meaning the person becomes a puppet or automaton and can no longer think for themselves.

Perhaps you should consider WHY a person who is misguided can not be guided?
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Any chance you could address them, as I address every one of yours?

A conversation is not a sprawling essay.
In that fashion. posts will get longer and longer.

If I miss a point you feel is important, then a short post containing the point might get answered?

 

[MyM]

Wrong. Nothing is pointless just because the future might be known by some "agent".

The past is fixed by our own actions, and the future is no different.

It's a vicious circle. He doesn't want to believe.

“Beautified is the life of this world for those who disbelieve, and they mock at those who believe. But those who obey Allah’s Orders and keep away from what He has forbidden, will be above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allah gives (of His bounty on the Day of Resurrection) to whom He wills without limit.”
al-Baqarah 2:212

 

[KWED]

What do you think I mean?

That's not how debate works. You are responsible for explaining what you mean. I am not responsible for guessing what you are thinking.

No, of course we can't change the past .. it is fixed.

You claimed the future is fixed like the past is fixed. Therefore we can't change the future. Therefore no free will.

What do you think fixed it?

The past is fixed because things have happened. The future is fixed (according to Islam) because Allah fixes it. Look up "Qadr".

Were we able to make decisions and influence its outcome or not? If not, why not?

Not if Allah had removed that ability - as he does when he "misguides people so none can guide them".
This is the thing that you keep avoiding. Allah manipulates some people so they cannot exercise free will. So, in those cases, how can they exercise free will?

 

[KWED]

There you go with your "G-d is a person" analogy yet again.

Oh dear god! It. Is. An. Analogy! It is explaining how the process works. It says nothing about the essential nature of god.

You interpret "Whoever Allah misguides, none can guide them" as meaning the person becomes a puppet or automaton and can no longer think for themselves.

No. It means that on the issue that god has misguided a person over, they do ho have the ability to find the truth.
If someone gives you the wrong directions to an appointment, it doesn't mean that you are a puppet. It just means that you won't get where you wanted to. The important point is who is responsible for you being late, you or the person who misguided you?

Perhaps you should consider WHY a person who is misguided can not be guided?

I cannot see any possible reason why god would want to misguide someone - especially as he only created them to worship him. It makes literally no sense.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.

You have completely misunderstood that saying.
Allah is not leading the person to water, he is sending them away from the water, even though he knows it will mean they will die of thirst.

 

[KWED]

A conversation is not a sprawling essay.
In that fashion. posts will get longer and longer.

If I miss a point you feel is important, then a short post containing the point might get answered?

Why so reluctant to address my points? They are all important. That's why I make them.

 

[KWED]

It's a vicious circle. He doesn't want to believe.

No, I don't want to "believe" anything. I want explanations that make sense. I want evidence. I wasn't reasonable arguments. I want to accept things or reject them on this basis.

“Beautified is the life of this world for those who disbelieve, and they mock at those who believe. But those who obey Allah’s Orders and keep away from what He has forbidden, will be above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allah gives (of His bounty on the Day of Resurrection) to whom He wills without limit.”
al-Baqarah 2:212

More religious platitudes and wishful thinking, I see.

I notice you didn't manage to respond to my detailed, referenced post, as demanded by yourself. You accused me of lying about Islam. I showed, with clear evidence that I was not lying and you were mistaken in claiming that ISIS are "un-Islamic".
Presumably you now accept that ISIS using female captives for sex is a principle allowed in Islam, but you are too embarrassed to admit it?
Don't worry, you aren't the first and wont be the last.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The past is fixed because things have happened..

Why did they happen?
..just forget about "what Allah says" for a moment .. it is irrelevant as regards to this issue.
Do you think that our decisions had any part to play in fixing the past or not?