ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

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You might be interested in this site about Abu Talib (a): Mention of Hadrat Abu Talib (A.S.) in the Ahadith | Shia Studies' World Assembly

 

[KWED]

There is a verse that says "restrain your hands" was a command early on, this was in context of oppression they faced and killings, Mohammad (s) said not to react but keep your hands restrained. In Surah Shura it's also hinted that they are oppressed, but that they are in a situation, although there is no way against those who seek victory and fight their oppressors, they were in a situation were it's better to be patient and forgive. But that they would eventually fight them and seek victory over their oppressors was also hinted in the same chapter.

Also all the verses of believers prosecuted in the past, were revealed in situations with Mohammad (s).

I'm not saying that Muhammad and his followers didn't face some opposition. They were constantly blaspheming and insulting the people's beliefs, after all. There are records of occasional instances of physical abuse and one, possibly two deaths over the course of that 12 year period.
The point is that is was not some constant, ongoing persecution that involved widespread and regular torture and death, as is claimed by many apologists. That simply did not happen.
It is noteworthy that the worst recorded abuse directed at Muhammad was having some offal thrown at him, and having dust put on his head. Obvious signs of disrespect, but Muhammad was a serial blasphemer and "mischief spreader" who refused to follow society's rules and traditions, so hardly unwarranted.

And it was nothing compared to the treatment handed out by Muhammad to those guilty of similar "offences" once he had become powerful, so a degree of hypocrisy as well as exaggeration.

 

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I'm not saying there was mass tortures, but people were forced to stay quiet and not show their faith, or else, there would have been mass tortures. And of one the hadiths I shared, show, after Abu Talib (a) died, Mohammad (s) emigrated and left Mecca.

 

[KWED]

The secret with Anti Islamic bogus scholars is that for Democracy, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is not a good example, but for Islam, ISIL is the example.

That's the dirty hypocrisy. As cheap as it could get.

A very poor analogy.
1. No one is claiming that ISIS represent "One True Islam".
2. Elections in North Korea are known to be undemocratic (all candidates are chosen by the ruling party and no others are permitted.)
3. Many of the more unpleasant actions of ISIS are demonstrably based in Islamic scripture, and ISIS themselves quote those passages as justification.

I will improve it for you...
North Korea are to authoritarian dictatorships what ISIS are to Islam.

Hope this helps.

 

[Link]

A very poor analogy.
1. No one is claiming that ISIS represent "One True Islam".
2. Elections in North Korea are known to be undemocratic (all candidates are chosen by the ruling party and no others are permitted.)
3. Many of the more unpleasant actions of ISIS are demonstrably based in Islamic scripture, and ISIS themselves quote those passages as justification.

I will improve it for you...
North Korea are to authoritarian dictatorships what ISIS are to Islam.

Hope this helps.

I'm actually in agreement, that Muslims ought to fix Islam as is and be sincere to what Islam ought to be as the justifications are often from what is accepted by classical scholars (including raping slaves) and realize we attributed God lies that go against justice.

But what doesn't help when we try to show Quran can be interpreted in ways and there exists hadiths in support of the interpretation, in other ways, you say we are twisting the religion and avoiding it's ugly parts. (paraphrasing you).

So you are basically saying it's ISIS interpretation or we should leave Islam.

If we are going to fix the issue of interpretation, people's who interpretations are more in line with justice, human rights and reason, have to be valued above those who just blindly follow generations of the past.

To say we have to follow what out forefathers and generations have passed us of Islam or otherwise leave it, is not a fair choice.

 

[KWED]

This is from another site (I read many hadiths, but to be brief here is one about the story of Ammar):

In the early days of the Prophet’s (SAW) mission there was much opposition to his message. This lead to several deaths, namely Sumayyah bint Khabbat, the first martyr of Islam.

Love how that says "let to several deaths, namely one".
And the one mentioned is the only one for which there seems to be any reasonable evidence.
So we agree that there was one death in 12 years. Yikes! Such persecution!!

Her son, Ammar Ibn Yasir also faced serious threat, and in the end told his oppressors what they wanted to hear in order to save his life.

And in the course of Muhammad's conquest of the Arabian peninsula, how many people told the invading Muslims that they were converting, simply in order to spare their lives and property?
Indeed, many, many times more than those who did a similar thing in Mecca during those 12 years. And bear in mind that most Muslims in Mecca weren't killed or tortured at all over that period.

 

[KWED]

I'm not saying there was mass tortures, but people were forced to stay quiet and not show their faith, or else, there would have been mass tortures. And of one the hadiths I shared, show, after Abu Talib (a) died, Mohammad (s) emigrated and left Mecca.

But that is simply not the case. There are many stories of early Muslims being mocked for their beliefs, so people know about them.
Some may have hid their faith for an easy life, but I don't think that's what Allah had in mind. Isn't life supposed to be a test, and the more hardship the greater the reward?
Denying Allah simply to avoid hardship contradicts this core element of doctrine.

 

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Show it from Shiite hadiths.

 

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And the one mentioned is the only one for which there seems to be any reasonable evidence.

She was the first martyr and it was pivotal moment, that is why her story is famous. Doesn't mean it didn't happen to others.

 

[KWED]

So you are basically saying it's ISIS interpretation or we should leave Islam.

Absolutely not. I am merely showing that claims of ISIS being "un-Islamic" are misinformed. That doesn't mean that everyone else is therefore "un-Islamic".
A person living in the west who believes in Allah and Muhammad but sometimes misses a prayer or a fast day and who socialises with non-Muslims and listens to music is just as much a Muslim as a zealous fundamentalist who joined ISIS in the genuine belief they were doing Allah's work.

If we are going to fix the issue of interpretation, people's who interpretations are more in line with justice, human rights and reason, have to be valued above those who just blindly follow generations of the past.

I agree that they are more acceptable to modern society, but in a theological sense they may well be less valid than the retentionist, literalist approach of groups like ISIS.

To say we have to follow what out forefathers and generations have passed us of Islam or otherwise leave it, is not a fair choice.

Well, blame Allah and Muhammad for that.

 

[KWED]

She was the first martyr and it was pivotal moment, that is why her story is famous. Doesn't mean it didn't happen to others.

The fact that there are no records of it happening suggests that it didn't. After all, actual martyrs are celebrated in Islam. Why would Islam's "second martyr" be written out of history?

 

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but in a theological sense they may well be less valid

Sure, by methodology of scholars that leads to that interpretation, it's less valid. Now why is their methodology correct per reasoning, Quran and Sunnah?

Religions got corrupted in the past per Quran. Islam always revealed. So why does this happen?

If we repeat the same mistakes, we will get a corrupted Islam as well.

 

[Link]

The fact that there are no records of it happening suggests that it didn't. After all, actual martyrs are celebrated in Islam. Why would Islam's "second martyr" be written out of history?

You don't know how history works. It doesn't record every event, that's too overwhelming and too much information. It highlights pivotal moments.

 

[KWED]

You don't know how history works.

It doesn't record every event, that's too overwhelming and too much information. It highlights pivotal moments.

So Muhammad having dust put in his hair is pivotal, but the second ever person martyred for Islam doesn't get a mention in any of the many thousands of hadith that have been recorded, especially given that the "persecution" supposedly faced by Muslims in Mecca was the justification for attacks on Quraysh interests and the invasion of Mecca? WADR, perhaps its you who doesn't understand how history works.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Please explain your Thaqeeya idea form some of your books with direct reference.

Why are you ignoring this question? Is it because you have no clue but you just said it because you heard it form somewhere?

Try. And if you dont know what you are talking about, just say so.

Lets hear it.

Funny how you can DEMAND and expect me to remain silent.
I asked you, do you believe in the hadith, or not?
In particular, Al Bukhari.

 

[KWED]

Funny how you can DEMAND and expect me to remain silent.
I asked you, do you believe in the hadith, or not?
In particular, Al Bukhari.

You won't get any answers from @firedragon . His MO is simply to deflect and distract. This is likely because he realises that any honest answer to many issues just raises more questions, as well as painting Islam, Muhammad, and his own position in an unfavourable light.

Then there is the "theological rock and a hard" place problem. When pressed on issues like slavery, using female captives for sex, torture, domestic violence, apologists usually don't want to admit they consider them morally acceptable in principle, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, that can't say those things are morally unacceptable in principle because they were all specifically permitted by Allah and practiced or condoned by Muhammad. It must be awful for them.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I asked you, do you believe in the hadith, or not?
In particular, Al Bukhari.

I believe that Sahih Bukhari is a valuable source of Islamic knowledge.

I don't think that one can prove that ISIS are "true Muslims" in the sense that they are pious, knowledgable followers of Islam.

Of course they are Muslims. I would have thought that that was obvious. It doesn't follow that their leaders are pious imams, or acting "in the name of G-d" as opposed to some political ideology.

 

[firedragon]

Funny how you can DEMAND and expect me to remain silent.
I asked you, do you believe in the hadith, or not?
In particular, Al Bukhari.

Irrelevant. And I never told you to be silent.

 

[firedragon]

I believe that Sahih Bukhari is a valuable source of Islamic knowledge.

I don't think that one can prove that ISIS are "true Muslims" in the sense that they are pious, knowledgable followers of Islam.

Of course they are Muslims. I would have thought that that was obvious. It doesn't follow that their leaders are pious imams, or acting "in the name of G-d" as opposed to some political ideology.

See, there are some people who share pornographic images attributed the prophet Muhammad. Fro that kind of people, reason will not matter. So they will only attest that ISIL are true muslims.

 

[MyM]

It doesn't matter how you put it across.

The ones that go against the Islamic teachings, like stopping the girls from getting educated, from killing at their own whims and desires and force their opinions, these do not represent the true Islamic religion. No matter how you try to convince those who do not want to be convince, it will end up with you(Muslims) being bashed for trying to make them understand. It will not amount to anything. If you are followers of the Quran and Sunnah and you can prove your religion with authenticated proofs, then leave these people who are bashing and ignorant when it comes to Islam, leave them be because they are not here to learn they instigate hatred and it shows.