ISIL, Taliban = True Islam??

[firedragon]

Funny how you can DEMAND and expect me to remain silent.
I asked you, do you believe in the hadith, or not?
In particular, Al Bukhari.

Mate. You said that I am practicing Taqeehah. So when you make that kind of assessment you should know what that means.

If you dont know, you are just clutching straws.

I have asked you many times what you mean by Taqeeya. And I have asked other brothers to explain it to you just so that you get a slight idea.

So now asking if I believe in some kind of ahadith like Bukhari is irrelevant.

If you dont know, just you dont know.

What is thaqeeya in your so called education? Just say so. If you dont know, say you dont know.

 

[SA Huguenot]

You won't get any answers from @firedragon . His MO is simply to deflect and distract. This is likely because he realises that any honest answer to many issues just raises more questions, as well as painting Islam, Muhammad, and his own position in an unfavourable light.

Then there is the "theological rock and a hard" place problem. When pressed on issues like slavery, using female captives for sex, torture, domestic violence, apologists usually don't want to admit they consider them morally acceptable in principle, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, that can't say those things are morally unacceptable in principle because they were all specifically permitted by Allah and practiced or condoned by Muhammad. It must be awful for them.

Well, I think Muslims are very sincere in their religion, they just have one point dividing them in 2 different possitions.
1. Those hard core Muslim fanatics that adheres to the Quran and Hadith that knows how dangerous the religion can be interperated when fully studied, and the other who dont know the real Islamic teachings, and who would rather ignore the bad part, thinking ignorance is bliss, and follows Islam with love and kindness.
The former, muslims who knows the religion in depth, are normally the ones telling everyone how wrong we are in thinking Muhammad was a warlord, who murdered, raped, and looted the inocent, and they will do their utmost to tell us we dont know Islam at all.

It is those Muslims that would like everyone not to read the Quran and Hadith, but to rather believe what they say the scriptures interperates to us.

And this is the problem they have which Muslims 300 years back did not have.
The printed writings.
How wonderfull that the printing presses today can give any lay person, and any one that would like to read for themself...the acurate words of religious books.
I dont need a priest, pope, Imaam, or theologan to tell me what I see on black and white.
It is there for all to see.

For too long were the populace of the world forced to be in a religion, because there was no outside information, except to what the clergy gave us.
The West broke free of Religious manupilation when the Catholic and Protestants found that anyone could owen a Bible. No more only the Church telling you what yoiu should believe.

In Islam it took much longer. The domination by their religious leaders was founded and ruled by fear of desent. Well, they still kill you if you leave Islam, and uses fearmongering to prevent Muslims to think for themself.

However, With the advent of the transistor that created the WWW and information to everyone on earth, more Muslims, mainly the youth, gets this information that shows then the "True character" of Muhammad and Islam.
on the otherhand, Non Muslims now also have the same facts and information that Muslims have.

No one can lie to no one anymore.
and yes, I feel sad and sorry for them.
How can you fight someone that has the same knowledge and facts than you have?
Greetings

 

[SA Huguenot]

Irrelevant. And I never told you to be silent.

Well, do you believe in the Hadith or not?

 

[firedragon]

Well, do you believe in the Hadith or not?

Well. The thing is, I or any other Muslim in the history of the world does not believe in ahadith like you do. You are hardcore.

You believe in all the ahadith. So you are the most hardcore, fundamentalist, extreme muslim I have ever come across.

You still didnt answer the question. You spoke of Taqeeyah. You never gave what you think it is. You say I am doing "taqeeyah" but when asked you ask if I believe in hadith.

Dishonest. If you are ignorant, just say so as you are.

 

[firedragon]

Well, I think Muslims are very sincere in their religion, they just have one point dividing them in 2 different possitions.
1. Those hard core Muslim fanatics that adheres to the Quran and Hadith that knows how dangerous the religion can be interperated when fully studied, and the other who dont know the real Islamic teachings, and who would rather ignore the bad part, thinking ignorance is bliss, and follows Islam with love and kindness.
The former, muslims who knows the religion in depth, are normally the ones telling everyone how wrong we are in thinking Muhammad was a warlord, who murdered, raped, and looted the inocent, and they will do their utmost to tell us we dont know Islam at all.

It is those Muslims that would like everyone not to read the Quran and Hadith, but to rather believe what they say the scriptures interperates to us.

And this is the problem they have which Muslims 300 years back did not have.
The printed writings.
How wonderfull that the printing presses today can give any lay person, and any one that would like to read for themself...the acurate words of religious books.
I dont need a priest, pope, Imaam, or theologan to tell me what I see on black and white.
It is there for all to see.

For too long were the populace of the world forced to be in a religion, because there was no outside information, except to what the clergy gave us.
The West broke free of Religious manupilation when the Catholic and Protestants found that anyone could owen a Bible. No more only the Church telling you what yoiu should believe.

In Islam it took much longer. The domination by their religious leaders was founded and ruled by fear of desent. Well, they still kill you if you leave Islam, and uses fearmongering to prevent Muslims to think for themself.

However, With the advent of the transistor that created the WWW and information to everyone on earth, more Muslims, mainly the youth, gets this information that shows then the "True character" of Muhammad and Islam.
on the otherhand, Non Muslims now also have the same facts and information that Muslims have.

No one can lie to no one anymore.
and yes, I feel sad and sorry for them.
How can you fight someone that has the same knowledge and facts than you have?
Greetings

Generally the most ignorant make posts like this. You know those individuals who cant answer a kindergarten level question.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Well. The thing is, I or any other Muslim in the history of the world does not believe in ahadith like you do. You are hardcore.

You believe in all the ahadith. So you are the most hardcore, fundamentalist, extreme muslim I have ever come across.

You still didnt answer the question. You spoke of Taqeeyah. You never gave what you think it is. You say I am doing "taqeeyah" but when asked you ask if I believe in hadith.

Dishonest. If you are ignorant, just say so as you are.

OK, lets not be so hardcore.
The collection of Al Bukhari's "Correct traditions", do you believe in those hadith?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Generally the most ignorant make posts like this. You know those individuals who cant answer a kindergarten level question.

such as: Do you believe in the Hadith perhaps?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Generally the most ignorant make posts like this. You know those individuals who cant answer a kindergarten level question.

I think the time has come to debate with one another on this forum.
We can do it this way, you pose one question, and I will answer.
Then vice versa.
We can set rules to prevent ongoing and cumbersume demands on who won and who lost.
No insults against each other, but only our point of views.
We can use all info to our availability.
Once one of us answered to our satisfaction, the other will be allowed to make only one post of rebuttal on the topic in discussion.
I would like to have such a civil debate where everyone, including us, can learn about Islam and Christianity.

perhaps we might even get a ferw moderators who will ensure that we follow the rules.
Or we can both decide that total freedom of speech will be allowed.

What do you say?

 

[firedragon]

such as: Do you believe in the Hadith perhaps?

Thats not relevant. It is you who has to justify why you believe in ahadith more dogmatically and blindly even more than any muslim in the world.

 

[firedragon]

We can do it this way, you pose one question, and I will answer.

Question: Why do you believe in ahadith so blindly?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Question: Why do you believe in ahadith so blindly?

I assume your refusal to debate is evidence that you know you are on the wrong path, and that I might have you baptised within a week or two!

 

[firedragon]

I assume your refusal to debate is evidence that you know you are on the wrong path, and that I might have you baptised within a week or two!

Not an answer.

Why do you believe in all the ahadith with no analysis? Thats the question.

 

[stevecanuck]

There is simply no evidence for prolonged or widespread physical persecution of Muslims in Mecca.

The Qur'an repeatedly complains of the Meccans mocking Mohamed, so if physical abuse was happening, surely it would have dedicated a verse or two to it. It makes no sense to complain of mockery while remaining silent on violence.

(Have you noticed how many times one can start a sentence regarding the Qur'an with the phrase, "It makes no sense ...."?)

 

[SA Huguenot]

Not an answer.

Why do you believe in all the ahadith with no analysis? Thats the question.

As usual it does not matter what I say, you will continue with some repeditive sentence you think is the ultimate answer.
Even though I told you many times, it is not I that believe in the Hadith, but you!
Somehow you skewed your logic into accusing me of an Islamic Hadith believer.

Do you see the problem?
It is you!
And I find you completely childish in repeating such a nonsensical statement.

But, this is what I expect of Muslims.
Never be able to communicate, never accept an answer if it is not a Muslim propagandist one!

Now, I will ignore you untill you decide to debate me on Islam.
period!

 

[firedragon]

As usual it does not matter what I say, you will continue with some repeditive sentence you think is the ultimate answer.
Even though I told you many times, it is not I that believe in the Hadith, but you!
Somehow you skewed your logic into accusing me of an Islamic Hadith believer.

Do you see the problem?
It is you!
And I find you completely childish in repeating such a nonsensical statement.

But, this is what I expect of Muslims.
Never be able to communicate, never accept an answer if it is not a Muslim propagandist one!

Now, I will ignore you untill you decide to debate me on Islam.
period!

Now that you have tried that, can you still explain why you, a non-muslim, believes in your cherry picked ahadith as historical fact?

Go ahead. Thanks.

 

[SA Huguenot]

 

[muhammad_isa]

..this is what I expect of Muslims.
Never be able to communicate, never accept an answer if it is not a Muslim propagandist one!

I believe in the hadiths..
I doubt whether I interpret them like you, however.

Furthermore, bombarding a person with scores of hadiths to prove a point, is not reasonable, unless you take into context each and every one.

..try three at a time .. you are more likely to learn something like that.
..but then, I don't really think that that is your intention, is it.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I believe in the hadiths..
I doubt whether I interpret them like you, however.

Furthermore, bombarding a person with scores of hadiths to prove a point, is not reasonable, unless you take into context each and every one.

..try three at a time .. you are more likely to learn something like that.
..but then, I don't really think that that is your intention, is it.

You are correct.
The only reason why I posted the list of hadith's was because it was a summary I made on the words of Muhammad instructing Muslims to wage war against non Muslims.
This was after Firedragon tried to connvince me that Jihadi's are not muslim and terrorism has nothing to do with Islam.
I agree, to post lists and scores of points, such as Contradictions in the Bible and Quran,to think you have much more evidence' is stupid.

I like your tone in the way you speak?

NS. I have studied most religions, and I am always open to discussing religious points.
And yes, I do not think Firedragon understands that he is deeply insulting my views and my religion, when he believes he alone has the right to make a statement.

I would obviously love to discuss the Hadith, but then we must both be open minded, and not attempt to force each other's opinion into the next one's throat.

 

[firedragon]

The only reason why I posted the list of hadith's was because it was a summary I made on the words of Muhammad instructing Muslims to wage war against non Muslims.

Being a non-muslim, why do you dogmatically believe your cherry picked ahadith? Do you believe everything Muslims believe?

Do you believe the prophet was a true prophet? If you believe your cherrypicked ahadith, why not believe the other ones as well?

Aren't you defining hypocrisy?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you believe the prophet was a true prophet? If you believe your cherrypicked ahadith, why not believe the other ones as well?

Hold on a moment, brother..
I think he's pointing out that Muslims believe these hadiths, and I would say that he is right when it comes to "sunnis", wouldn't you?

I've asked him not to bombard us, and to consider one or two hadiths at a time.
There is no doubt in my mind that Muslims should not be pacifists.
It is also very clear in my mind that G-d does not like those that start aggression.

It is the classic case of those that claim "how can G-d be both loving and harsh in punishment simultaneously?", imo.
People with roots in a Christian society , often find this contradictory.