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Islam as a dangerous bet with no return
- Thread starter LuisDantas
- Start date
I have participated in a Muslim-sponsored interfaith event. Upon leaving, I was handed some literature explaining why Islam was the only true religion. It took about two sentences to refute Hinduism.
Anyway, Luis is trying to look at collective psychology or mindset here. It is basically implicit than one can say nothing, or nearly nothing, which will apply to every single Muslim, but that's not what is being done here. I know of somebody identifying as a Muslim atheist
You whited out a part of Luis' post, resulting in the sentence 'We should care instead about true religion, true civilisation and true human consideration', and then agreed with this constructed sentence. What would constitute those three true things?
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Oh ... I'm not saying I disagree or don't understand the words. I think you have the responsibility to support your position. That's all. I'd like to know why you think all of those things.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I think he is referring to the teachings of Islam to try to convert people.
No, he is presuming "a collective psychology or mindset here." There's a word for that.
What is it?
If that is what he means, he is being fraudulent as he quotes me. I state outright that Islam is not true religion as I conceive it.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If I can find it again, it was an article on the BBC, but it involves what a female Muslim is calling Islam Feminism, and the do question certain parts of the Quran.
I have noticed, no one criticizes Martin Heidegger, even though his philosophies were influential during the Islamic Revolution during the 70s. I'm just glad society has largely moved away from the idea that Nietzsche has some very dangerous ideas that are best avoided.
I still stand firm, the problem is not religion, it's people. Why do people not ask questions? Why do some people fear change so much they will kill to preserve tradition? Why do some people cling to their beliefs so much they will turn violent over them? Focusing solely on religion, as many do, will not adequately answer these questions, and when you focus on religion, you must ask "why these followers, but not these?" The answer to that, I am very certain, lies not in the religion but in the individual person, in their culture, and rather than just questioning why are there some violent Muslims and some peaceful Muslims, we can include things like nationalism, animal rights, and profit as other things that incite people to violence, giving ourselves more samples to draw from when trying to answer why some people turn violent. Even over romance, people are known for turning violent. Why is this?
I have noticed, no one criticizes Martin Heidegger, even though his philosophies were influential during the Islamic Revolution during the 70s. I'm just glad society has largely moved away from the idea that Nietzsche has some very dangerous ideas that are best avoided.
I still stand firm, the problem is not religion, it's people. Why do people not ask questions? Why do some people fear change so much they will kill to preserve tradition? Why do some people cling to their beliefs so much they will turn violent over them? Focusing solely on religion, as many do, will not adequately answer these questions, and when you focus on religion, you must ask "why these followers, but not these?" The answer to that, I am very certain, lies not in the religion but in the individual person, in their culture, and rather than just questioning why are there some violent Muslims and some peaceful Muslims, we can include things like nationalism, animal rights, and profit as other things that incite people to violence, giving ourselves more samples to draw from when trying to answer why some people turn violent. Even over romance, people are known for turning violent. Why is this?
There was one in 2006, IIRC. But it was a very eccletic event and I don't remember dealing with Muslims there.
You sound a lot like my own discourse a few years ago.
Must I explain to you why arguments based on the silent majority are no good?
I would ask you what it is (I don't know what it would be), but I suspect you are not acting in good faith, so maybe you should not bother.
Please try to be more respectful in the future.
I am referring to the basic, unavoidable directives of Muslim doctrine as I have come to learn of it.
And, for that matter, as they time and again end up reaffirmed even here in RF.
Islam is simply not giving me any reason to believe in its even potential ability to actually deal respectfully with dissent.
I wish Jay were right in thinking of me as unfair to Muslims. But he will have to do a lot better than attempting to intimidate me with an appeal to statistical arguments that are based on the lack of evidence.
I grew out of those fears a few years ago.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If I can find it again, it was an article on the BBC, but it involves what a female Muslim is calling Islam Feminism, and the do question certain parts of the Quran.
I have noticed, no one criticizes Martin Heidegger, even though his philosophies were influential during the Islamic Revolution during the 70s. I'm just glad society has largely moved away from the idea that Nietzsche has some very dangerous ideas that are best avoided.
I still stand firm, the problem is not religion, it's people. Why do people not ask questions? Why do some people fear change so much they will kill to preserve tradition? Why do some people cling to their beliefs so much they will turn violent over them? Focusing solely on religion, as many do, will not adequately answer these questions, and when you focus on religion, you must ask "why these followers, but not these?" The answer to that, I am very certain, lies not in the religion but in the individual person, in their culture, and rather than just questioning why are there some violent Muslims and some peaceful Muslims, we can include things like nationalism, animal rights, and profit as other things that incite people to violence, giving ourselves more samples to draw from when trying to answer why some people turn violent. Even over romance, people are known for turning violent. Why is this?
I also wonder why do people generalize? The way many people talk you'd think it would be very unsafe to be around any Muslims from anywhere in the world. They way people talk, you'd think every Muslim in the Middle East is a violent warmonger, and that every Muslim community is horribly repressive and governed by ancient patriarchal 'might is right' religious sort of laws. But that is not how it is.
I think people want to blame Islam because people are afraid to admit that we humans are capable of very horrible and terrible things. We even complain when someone tries to humanize the likes of Adolf Hitler, because we are very uncomfortable with the idea that people like Hitler are one of us, a mere human being trying to make sense of life.
I think the sooner we realize and embrace that we humans are extremists, we are terrorists, we are brutal dictators, and we are blood thirsty and cruel, the sooner we can begin on trying to figure out why we are this way, and if there is any way to avoid it.
I have noticed, no one criticizes Martin Heidegger, even though his philosophies were influential during the Islamic Revolution during the 70s. I'm just glad society has largely moved away from the idea that Nietzsche has some very dangerous ideas that are best avoided.
I still stand firm, the problem is not religion, it's people. Why do people not ask questions? Why do some people fear change so much they will kill to preserve tradition? Why do some people cling to their beliefs so much they will turn violent over them? Focusing solely on religion, as many do, will not adequately answer these questions, and when you focus on religion, you must ask "why these followers, but not these?" The answer to that, I am very certain, lies not in the religion but in the individual person, in their culture, and rather than just questioning why are there some violent Muslims and some peaceful Muslims, we can include things like nationalism, animal rights, and profit as other things that incite people to violence, giving ourselves more samples to draw from when trying to answer why some people turn violent. Even over romance, people are known for turning violent. Why is this?
I also wonder why do people generalize? The way many people talk you'd think it would be very unsafe to be around any Muslims from anywhere in the world. They way people talk, you'd think every Muslim in the Middle East is a violent warmonger, and that every Muslim community is horribly repressive and governed by ancient patriarchal 'might is right' religious sort of laws. But that is not how it is.
I think people want to blame Islam because people are afraid to admit that we humans are capable of very horrible and terrible things. We even complain when someone tries to humanize the likes of Adolf Hitler, because we are very uncomfortable with the idea that people like Hitler are one of us, a mere human being trying to make sense of life.
I think the sooner we realize and embrace that we humans are extremists, we are terrorists, we are brutal dictators, and we are blood thirsty and cruel, the sooner we can begin on trying to figure out why we are this way, and if there is any way to avoid it.
But we are also kind, compassionate, caring, loving, worshipful and happy. Oh no.
But you're right, there is huge stereotyping of Muslims, and of 'Muslim societies' within the Western mindset, by and large.
Indonesia, Malaysia and Turkey are certainly not Saudi Arabia. But they're also certainly not Sweden.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
And what is today's best representation thereof?
I hope you are not betting that respect for truth would necessarily (or even often) lead to acceptance of Islam, though.
Because boy, are you going to be disappointed if you do.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Ain't that the truth!
gsa
Well-Known Member
No one criticizes Heidegger? He was a Nazi who had extramarital affairs with two female Jewish students (one being Hannah Arendt). He has been criticized quite a bit.
Most critics of religion are also aware of the dangers of nationalism and radicalism generally. But if you are saying that religious beliefs do not matter, that people are not actually motivated by religion. I strongly disagree. There may be reasons that people start to believe these things, but many religious extremists are actually motivated by their religion. They do believe it.
As far as generalizations, if someone says "Islam is a religion of peace," do you offer the same criticism? If someone claims that violence is contrary to Christianity, do you correct the error? How about the president of the United States claiming that ISIS is not Islamic? It seems this criticism of generalization runs in one direction. Of course most Muslims aren’t violent, but the texts that they claim to believe in do promote violence. They do promote patriarchy. And it shows in the dominance of patriarchy in the ummah.
One of the major lessons of the Holocaust is that it can happen anywhere. I don’t think we are afraid to admit that humans are capable of horrible and terrible things. Strangely, the same people who can see the pathological impact of Christian fundamentalism seem to be able to ignore the impact of Islamic fundamentalism.