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Islam is the most misunderstood religion in contemporary society

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I don't find Karen Armstrong very convincing. I often find her views on religions to be wildly inaccurate. I would prefer if the information comes from a recognized and accredited Islamic theologian from the Hanafi school for instance.

Well you're one of few, Karen Armstrong has been in the game for a long time. I think her views are necessary in the academic circle to bring a more academic perspective. There are plenty Islamic scholars and Sheikhs like Sheikh Ahmed Tijani Ben Omar (A funny Imam), or Imam Hassan Qazwini, or my favorite Imam Omar Suleiman. But these guys are drowned out by both the Western media and by fanatics.

Here are a couple videos:


 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I don't think it has to do with the west as much as it is Islam being presented as a religion of peace while Shiites blow up Sunni Mosques and visa versa. Or Isis killing every muslim they find.

No different that presenting the love of Jesus while Northern Ireland Catholics kill Southern Ireland Protestants.

The West has nothing to do with either.

There is enough evidence to demonstrate the contrary.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I don't think so. You are ignoring the cornerstone of Islam's rebellion against true faith which is to disown the son of God and his authority over what constitutes faith at all. As the book of James says, even the Devil believes in God.

Whatever way in which you misrepresent the Quran, concealing its unpalatable parts or overemphasizing its more sensible parts, the Quran is not the ultimate word because it repudiates the Old Testament and disowns the new. It makes the world's estimated 2.2 billion Christians to be fools. Moreover we all know where the Quranic idea of Allah came from. It derives from Ba'al, (with many modifications) and not YHWH of the Israelites. Allah and YHWH are not the same God.

You're looking at it from a Christian perspective. Remember, the Jews do not believe in Jesus nor recognize the New Testament. Muslims do however believe in Jesus. Arab Christians and Arab Jews call God Allah. Allah is the God of Israel Allah simply means "The Deity" or "The God" just as in Hebrew HaShem means "The Name." There is only one God and with so many languages on the earth whatever name you call God, that is him.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well you're one of ew, Karen Armstrong has been in the game for a long time. I think her views are necessary in the academic circle to bring a more academic perspective. There are plenty Islamic scholars and Sheikhs like Sheikh Ahmed Tijani Ben Omar (A funny Imam), or Imam Hassan Qazwini, or my favorite Imam Omar Suleiman. But these guys are drowned out by both the Western media and by fanatics.

Here are a couple videos:


I am more interested in their views of women's rights, gay rights, evolutionary science, freedom to criticize Islam, freedom to convert from Islam etc. Terrorism is a bare minimum and is obviously opposed by most Muslims.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I am more interested in their views of women's rights, gay rights, evolutionary science, freedom to criticize Islam, freedom to convert from Islam etc. Terrorism is a bare minimum and is obviously opposed by most Muslims.

Then YOU need to do the research and see what their views are you shouldn't expect me to provide them for you. I'm no Muslim spokesperson nor am I a Muslim myself, I just study Islamic philosophy and theology. I only listed a few that I like, but if you wish to look further do the research. I don't know I guess for me being a student for so long I'm used to doing things on my own and investigating truth. You seem like you want things provided for you so you can argue those points not understand, nah "patna," you gotta put in your own work.

There is a famous quote we have at work on the board, "people listen to respond not to understand..."
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Then YOU need to do the research and see what their views are you shouldn't expect me to provide them for you. I'm no Muslim spokesperson nor am I a Muslim myself, I just study Islamic philosophy and theology. I only listed a few that I like, but if you wish to look further do the research. I don't know I guess for me being a student for so long I'm used to doing things on my own and investigating truth.
OK. You started the thread. That's why I asked.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It's weird...because I think the exactly opposite thing: that Muslims feel targeted all the time by Western secularism.

All religions are constantly criticized very harshly, but when it's Muslims' turn they think they are the only victims of this criticism. Or that strict secular laws target them specifically..
I find it bizarre, honestly.

Btw it's obvious that religions are misunderstood...but what matters is that in our secular Europe Muslims live a decent life and are respected and I guess the growing number of mixed marriages is sign of social cohesion.

@@ We do want to listen to Muslims' perspective...besides I've met only excellent Muslims in my life and I agree with a couple of things in the OP:
- I do agree that people unjustly blame the religion to shift the attention from the real causes of the ME conflicts
- I do agree there is a too wrong perception of Islam due to ignorance
 
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Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
OK. You started the thread. That's why I asked.

My thesis of the OP was to discuss, actually to present an analysis of why Islam has been misunderstood through a lens other than the perspective of the Muslim. I followed this through some suggestive ways to look t the perspective of the Muslim and to discuss the psychopathology of why people within that faith can become violent. Many sociologists would suggest looking at things from a broader level and having the willingness to step outside yourself. To investigate is an independent endeavor, you should know this being a supposed person of science.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
While I think Karen Armstrong often has her heart in the right place, she often seems to indulge in loosely supported, murky or muddled views of religion. At least that's my take on her.

Well considering her books come from post 9/11 I think we need to take a positive approach to religion and make important distinctions. After all, post 9/11 many Sikhs had to suffer due to the mass ignorance of what Islam is and what it stands for.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
It's weird...because I think the exactly opposite thing: that Muslims feel targeted all the time by Western secularism.

All religions are constantly criticized very harshly, but when it's Muslims' turn they think they are the only victims of this criticism. Or that strict secular laws target them specifically..
I find it bizarre, honestly.

Btw it's obvious that religions are misunderstood...but what matters is that in our secular Europe Muslims live a decent life and are respected and I guess the growing number of mixed marriages are sign of social cohesion.

Wrong. it is not obvious that religions are misunderstood, and yes Muslims do feel targeted by western secularists because they are! I've had Muslims here message me to talk about why they don't engage in discussing their faith here. This website whose members converge upon, are not hospitable to the perspective of the Muslim opinion. Many want to argue about such and such point without wanting to hear the perspective of the Muslim. As an outsider I can see the inhospitable opinions here for myself! I totally understand why Muslims here feel singled out.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
My thesis of the OP was to discuss, actually to present an analysis of why Islam has been misunderstood through a lens other than the perspective of the Muslim. I followed this through some suggestive ways to look t the perspective of the Muslim and to discuss the psychopathology of why people within that faith can become violent. Many sociologists would suggest looking at things from a broader level and having the willingness to step outside yourself. To investigate is an independent endeavor, you should know this being a supposed person of science.
But to misunderstand something is to believe a series of things about Islam that is wrong. What things are these? Are you only focusing only on suicide terrorism and nothing else for this thread?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I don't have many qualms about Islam itself (as I don't associate Terrorist extremist groups with the religion) but Allah in the Quran seems far more egocentric than even Yahweh!
Just an observation of mine, I do find that with the concept of Theism - that a self-conscious God would absolutely be full of themselves, so I don't find it that hard to believe. The morals seem extensively "to Allah, for Allah, always Allah" for me personally, but again that's just me.

Can you be more specific?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Wrong. it is not obvious that religions are misunderstood, and yes Muslims do feel targeted by western secularists because they are! I've had Muslims here message me to talk about why they don't engage in discussing their faith here. This website whose members converge upon, are not hospitable to the perspective of the Muslim opinion. Many want to argue about such and such point without wanting to hear the perspective of the Muslim. As an outsider I can see the inhospitable opinions here for myself! I totally understand why Muslims here feel singled out.
Well, many Muslim people need to learn to tolerate criticism of their faiths and beliefs, especially in the debate section.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
But to misunderstand something is to believe a series of things about Islam that is wrong. What things are these? Are you only focusing only on suicide terrorism and nothing else for this thread?

I'm not focusing on terrorism but terrorism is the popular association of Islam but no it's not the sole focus.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
What is the correct way to look at Islam?

Any faith that promotes good, justice, and equality, and promotes self-growth and excellence and the fair treatment of others which is the baseline of Islam, is the correct way of looking at Islam.

Oh really? Why is it that Islamic countries are the most oppressive countries in the world, who abuse women and minorities and most certainly do NOT treat others fairly? Oh let me guess.....despite the fact that these countries are Muslim theocracies, this abuse is unrelated and "has nothing to do with Islam." Yeah, right...
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
"The secular mind is deeply entrenched with the idea that Islam is a system of beliefs where fanaticism and moderate devotion to a supernatural deity is indistinguishable."

-Epic Beard Man


I began that quote from listening to an hour and twenty-three minute video of Karen Armstrong giving a lecture regarding the secular views of Islam today. According to Karen Armstrong, the "bed rock message of the Qur'an is it is good to share your wealth fairly, and wrong to horde a private fortune, and the aim of life is to build a just and decent society where vulnerable people are treated with equity and respect." In Ms. Armstrong's lecture, she brings up a good point where in viewing other religions we tend to view them through the lens of Protestant Christianity, where religion is considered as a separate activity. Hence in the west we see Protestant Christianity as a benchmark in which we judge all others. This is why Buddhism and Confucianism are considered "secular ideologies" but according to Armstrong, the Buddha and Confucius would have not understood secularism as we see it.

Unfortunately, throughout the years (actually centuries) Islam has been presented by the west as a blood thirsty religion bent on Holy War, or Jihad to commence the campaign of Dar al-Islam. The western viewpoint of Jihad is the misunderstanding (whether intentional or unintentional) of Quranic interpretation of a holy struggle of the self. Jihad is the constant battle from within and in fact according to Islam, the constant battle from within is the greatest form of Jihad. Jihad appears in the Qur'an only 44 times and in 10 of those does it refer to warfare. Jihad is a struggle. Ms. Armstrong cites some examples regarding what it means to struggle such as for instance it being a struggle to give someone something to eat because they are hungry when you yourself are hungry. Do you give in to your own senses and biological desires or do you transcend beyond that and do the selfless act and give to the starving person.

In the west we turn on our television and watch news outlets of ISIL (or ISIS) or other terrorist organizations who commit acts of violence such as bombings and suicide bombings and the fervor or these groups who vehemently believe what they're doing is for God. It is historical fact that suicide bombings was not invented by Muslim extremists in fact, it was an invention by the Tamil Tigers, an extremely secular organization. According to Armstrong, though we see the early bombings happening in Lebanon committed by Shi'ites, most attacks during the 1980's in Lebanon and Jordan were done by secularists and socialists and secularists from Syria 7 suicide bombings were done by Muslims and 27 were done by secularists. Suicide bombings is strictly unIslamic and many Muslim scholars cite several verses but one verse is more popular when responding to critics concerning suicide bombings:

Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Qur’an, 5:32).

When it comes to violence of this type in looking at the actions of these Muslims who commit these violent acts, we must look at the root cause of these actions. Because what we see are people who believe that their country is invaded by a power more advanced in weaponry than the people. Coupled this with doctrinal ignorance, low education, hopelessness, limited resources, desperation, and a fiery and fanatical Imam, you have a recipe for disaster. There is something inherently wrong when a child who has never lived life expresses glee in the manner that some of these kids do, when they see their violent causes as something for "The Lord of the Worlds." The problem I see when people examine Islam is that we tend to see Islam from a Western perspective. I mean, we do this with a lot of people. Instead of asking why, we need to be asking how? How does the psychopathology of someone who is desperately trying to kill themselves and others develop? Where do people get these ideas?

People do not examine the perspective of the other by stepping outside themselves, and even though some do, they still place their western perspective in scenarios like "even if I was in that situation I would do such and such, and such and such." No, you wouldn't because if you were in that scenario you would not be having a western perspective on life or having the perspective of life that you have now, you'd have their perspective. I tend to ask myself when looking at the violence that is happening in the world in that sector I wonder what is compounding the violent ideologies? I firmly believe it is the socio-political infrastructures that over time have become unstable and paralyzed in time due to a collective effort of outside forces (western influences of warfare e.g. think CIA influence on the Taliban fighting Russians).

When it comes to the religious interpretation of he Qur'an like Judaism and the reading of the Talmud, the Qur'an is read through a filtration system such as the Imam or the Hadith. People often ask "what is the correct interpretation of Islam?" I would answer from an outsider's perspective it depends where you are in the world. For many impoverished Palestinians, their interpretation of Islam is a lot different than the perspective of Muslims who live in Detroit or New York. Just as the perspective of an Irish Christian would be different religiously than the perspective of a Taiwanese Christian. Our environment can be our x-factor in how we see ourselves in the world from a religious perspective.

What is the correct way to look at Islam?

Any faith that promotes good, justice, and equality, and promotes self-growth and excellence and the fair treatment of others which is the baseline of Islam, is the correct way of looking at Islam.

Well to say, that Islam is a religion of peace, When all anyone has to do is look around the world and see that Islam is not the Religion of peace as Islam claims its self to be.

The purpose of Islam is to deceive people into believing that Islam is a Religion of peace, then once Islam has people deceived then these people in turn goes out by deception to deceive other people to believe Islam is a religion of peace that it keeps going until finally Islam has totally conquered to control people in other countries. This is the whole agenda, purpose of Islam to deceive to conquer by control, by deceiving one or more people, then in return these people go out deceiving by deception to deceive other people, until Islam has totally conquered people.
Then Islam starts to weed out what Islam considers to be bad from the good ones.

all anyone has to do is read the q'uran for themselves.to see the whole purpose of Islam.

You can not ask Islam to tell the truth by their q'uran when their Q'uran promotes lying and deceiving to gain the upper hand to conquer to control people..
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Then YOU need to do the research and see what their views are you shouldn't expect me to provide them for you. I'm no Muslim spokesperson nor am I a Muslim myself, I just study Islamic philosophy and theology. I only listed a few that I like, but if you wish to look further do the research. I don't know I guess for me being a student for so long I'm used to doing things on my own and investigating truth. You seem like you want things provided for you so you can argue those points not understand, nah "patna," you gotta put in your own work.

There is a famous quote we have at work on the board, "people listen to respond not to understand..."
The problem with the idea above is that most Muslims in the world speak languages other than English. Thus most books for mainstream Muslims are not written in English. English books are either written by non Muslims, or to self-consciously improve the image of Islam for Western audience. Hence I have difficulty in trusting these books.
 
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