Islam: when is a person considered a Muslim?

[Shakeel]

The interpretation of what "mercy" and "respect" stand for from an Islamic perspective clearly varies among many Muslims, since millions of Muslims certainly don't believe that one can be "merciful" or "respectful" while condoning the killing of people for changing their religion.

Their ignorance is not the issue at hand.

Actions are worth a lot more than mere words are. If you claim to support mercy and respect but support inhumanely violent and oppressive beliefs, then it seems to me your worldview is inconsistent. Simple as that.

From your point of view, but what do I do with that? It doesn't move me how much you dislike Islam.

 

[JustGeorge]

I don't see @Meow Mix being any more/less emotional in response than @Debater Slayer . Are you sure you're not projecting you own idea of who @Meow Mix and @Debater Slayer onto them, being as you are aware of their genders, @Shakeel ? Is it possible if they were anonymous, you'd be unaware of their genders?

 

[Shakeel]

Even Allah instructs believers to leave the 'unbelievers' to him.

That's a topic you won't be able to sum up by quoting a verse.

I admit I was a little surprised that he sought me out as a friend, but I suspect this is allowed because he is about my son's age; meaning I am old enough to have mothered him. (He is young.)

Age difference doesn't matter if one is not a child without awareness of sexuality or an old person who has lost sexual desire. And since you're a disbeliever, a close friendship with you to a Muslim is in itself prohibited regardless of gender.

 

[Shakeel]

I don't see @Meow Mix being any more/less emotional in response than @Debater Slayer . Are you sure you're not projecting you own idea of who @Meow Mix and @Debater Slayer onto them, being as you are aware of their genders, @Shakeel ? Is it possible if they were anonymous, you'd be unaware of their genders?

No.

 

[JustGeorge]

That's a topic you won't be able to sum up by quoting a verse.

Age difference doesn't matter if one is not a child without awareness of sexuality or an old person who has lost sexual desire. And since you're a disbeliever, a close friendship with you to a Muslim is in itself prohibited regardless of gender.

It seems like a pretty clear cut verse to me.

And you'll have to forgive me(though I wouldn't be surprised if you don't)not being able to give you verse number, but I do recall reading in the Qur'an that friendship was okay with nonbelievers that mean no harm to Islam; it was just those who would do it harm that it was forbidden. Though largely, yes, companionship with other Muslims is encouraged.

No.

You say no, but I'm not convinced. I see people misjudge people's gender all the time online when its not given freely. Perhaps you're particularly skilled, but I don't have proof of this.

 

[Heyo]

Why would someone not lie under threat of death? It is nonsensical. The only way I see that happening is if the person is some kind of a rebel who would be unfit to the society anyway.

Hmm - lets say a western society sees people like you as unfit for their society and lets say they give you the option to lie. So they make a law that Muslims are not allowed into their country because they are unfit for their society but they don't "test" if you're a Muslim. You are simply asked if you are a Muslim. You can lie.

Would that be OK with you?

In order to realistically talk about the effects of such a law, you have to look at its application realistically, too, without exaggeration.

Let's look at the effects of such a law realistically.

 

[BrightShadow]

God in Islam clearly tells Muslims that they do not bear the burden of the wrong choices others make with their religious convictions. God knows who strays from His path! So, it is a personal issue with their God and it is something that he himself will take care of. In other words - He would deal with the ones who departs from the religion - Himself!

[Quran 53:38] "that no soul shall bear the burden of another;"

[Quran 35:18] "No bearer will bear the burden of any other person....."

[Quran 6:125-126] "When God wishes to guide someone, He opens their breast to Islam; when He wishes to lead them astray, He closes and constricts their breast as if they were climbing up to the skies. That is how God makes the foulness of those who do not believe rebound against them. This is the path of your Lord, made perfectly straight. We have explained Our revelations to those who take heed."

So, their God is clearly not asking Muslims to take any actions against apostates. Of course some reasonable efforts can be taken to make them rethink their decision and try to bring them back to Islam and that is all the Quran is asking!

Here is a verse that clearly details it...
[Quran 16:125]" Invite (people) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good counsel. And argue with them in the best of manners. Surely, your Lord knows best the one who deviates from His way, and He knows best the ones who are on the right path."

This kind of decent approach is mentioned in these verses in Quran and on the contrary - there are no verse to suggest that Muslims have to kill apostates! So, Quran is actually teaching the opposite from what some of the Muslims are practicing! Quran is telling Muslims to argue in a kind manner and politely try to convince them to stay with Islam!
So, it is fair to say that - if Islamic God wanted Muslims to take deadly action against apostates then a book that is claimed to be a complete revelations - would have mentioned something to collaborate with that. Where is that evidence? Why some Muslims are looking into Ahadith?
Why innovate or adopt new and wrong concepts from vague secondary sources that are clearly in violation with Quran's core teachings? This is only destroying the belief system. Muslims who came up with this flawed concept or adhere to it - most likely will find themselves in a tough position with their God!

[Quran 4:137-138] "As for those who believe, then reject the faith, then believe again, then reject the faith again and become increasingly defiant, God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them on any path. [Prophet], tell such hypocrites that an agonizing torment awaits them."

"Tell them that torment awaits them" - this clearly means God will take care of them himself. It shows that God in Islam is not asking Muslims to take action against Apostates.

[Quran 2:136-137] "So [you believers], say, ‘We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we devote ourselves to Him. So if they believe like you do, they will be rightly guided. But if they turn their backs, then they will be entrenched in opposition. God will protect you from them: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing. And say [believers]"

Here God in Islam actually saying that if someone turns his back and become an opposition to Muhammad or to Islam then God will protect Muhammad from them. So, it is actually opposite of telling Muhammad to go and kill them! So, if Muhammad is not even told to kill opposition then why would he be told to kill a simple Muslim (let alone a kid) who just looses his/her faith in Islam and wants to abandon it?

[Quran 5:13] But they broke their pledge, so We distanced them [from Us] and hardened their hearts. They distort the meaning of [revealed] words and have forgotten some of what they were told to remember: you [Prophet] will always find treachery in all but a few of them. Overlook this and pardon them: God loves those who do good."

Here, Muhammad is directed to overlook Jews and Christians who distorted the meanings of their revelation. So, why their God worry about any Muslim kid who finds Islam is not for him?

[Quran 41:33] Who can be better in words than the one who calls towards Allah, and acts righteously and says, “I am one of those who submit themselves (to Allah)”?

Muhammad is asked to set a good example by his speech and his deeds before calling people to Islam. So, it is illogical to think he wanted to set a good example by killing Apostates. How is that setting up a good example?

[Quran 6:115] "The word of your Lord is complete in its truth and justice. No one can change His words: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing"

So, since Quran is complete, any Muslim tries to add some new concept with it - will be at fault with his Lord!
In my opinion - it is a shame that some believers don't consult their own religious book themselves but rely on clerics to tell them about their own faith and it is a shame how some clerics interprets and innovates things to match with their cultural or political backgrounds or in collaboration with their personal desires how they want their religion to be. I personally think - it is probably adopted by some to keep their teenage girls from abandoning their religion or even in some cases eloping with someone from another religion. Some of their teenage girls who are restricted due to cultural reasons in some Muslim countries - may feel it is the religion's fault!
I can see why the enlightened clerics stay quiet against these blind followers who refuse to budge and refused to open their eyes to what their doctrine is really telling them. The knowledgeable ones probably get threatened and accused of being an apostate if they try to show how some false implications have made their way into the religion via unreliable Ahadith. The blind believers don't want anything changed!
In my opinion, any Hadith that contradicts with the Quran should be classified as mistaken explanation or a fabricated lie! It is a simple litmus test. It is that easy to distinguish right Hadith from wrong ones!

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't see anyone else sounding emotional. Just pointing it out since it became so convenient and you don't seem to accept this natural side of being a woman.

I’m allowed to be emotional without it being ascribed to my sex. Other women responded less emotionally. It has to do with who I am as an individual, not that I’m a woman.

I have no respect for beliefs that would murder children, so I’m going to voice that.

You mentioned using power words: yep, there’s a reason my dad calls me a hothead. It doesn’t mean my reasoning is false when I’m reasoning. Sometimes expressing disgust is not an argument, but simply that.

There’s also my disability: I might gravitate towards stronger language because this is the only way I ever get to express emotion, with text. I don’t get the power of inflection and tone of voice.

So yes, I’m going to respond strongly to worldviews that advocate killing children. (It’s just as bad to advocate killing adults for mere skepticism of the religion, too; but there’s something especially nonsensical and barbaric about killing children for doubt).

 

[Meow Mix]

God in Islam clearly tells Muslims that they do not bear the burden of the wrong choices others make with their religious convictions. God knows who strays from His path! So, it is a personal issue with their God and it is something that he himself will take care of. In other words - He would deal with the ones who departs from the religion - Himself!

[Quran 53:38] "that no soul shall bear the burden of another;"

[Quran 35:18] "No bearer will bear the burden of any other person....."

[Quran 6:125-126] "When God wishes to guide someone, He opens their breast to Islam; when He wishes to lead them astray, He closes and constricts their breast as if they were climbing up to the skies. That is how God makes the foulness of those who do not believe rebound against them. This is the path of your Lord, made perfectly straight. We have explained Our revelations to those who take heed."

So, their God is clearly not asking Muslims to take any actions against apostates. Of course some reasonable efforts can be taken to make them rethink their decision and try to bring them back to Islam and that is all the Quran is asking!

Here is a verse that clearly details it...
[Quran 16:125]" Invite (people) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good counsel. And argue with them in the best of manners. Surely, your Lord knows best the one who deviates from His way, and He knows best the ones who are on the right path."

This kind of decent approach is mentioned in these verses in Quran and on the contrary - there are no verse to suggest that Muslims have to kill apostates! So, Quran is actually teaching the opposite from what some of the Muslims are practicing! Quran is telling Muslims to argue in a kind manner and politely try to convince them to stay with Islam!
So, it is fair to say that - if Islamic God wanted Muslims to take deadly action against apostates then a book that is claimed to be a complete revelations - would have mentioned something to collaborate with that. Where is that evidence? Why some Muslims are looking into Ahadith?
Why innovate or adopt new and wrong concepts from vague secondary sources that are clearly in violation with Quran's core teachings? This is only destroying the belief system. Muslims who came up with this flawed concept or adhere to it - most likely will find themselves in a tough position with their God!

[Quran 4:137-138] "As for those who believe, then reject the faith, then believe again, then reject the faith again and become increasingly defiant, God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them on any path. [Prophet], tell such hypocrites that an agonizing torment awaits them."

"Tell them that torment awaits them" - this clearly means God will take care of them himself. It shows that God in Islam is not asking Muslims to take action against Apostates.

[Quran 2:136-137] "So [you believers], say, ‘We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we devote ourselves to Him. So if they believe like you do, they will be rightly guided. But if they turn their backs, then they will be entrenched in opposition. God will protect you from them: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing. And say [believers]"

Here God in Islam actually saying that if someone turns his back and become an opposition to Muhammad or to Islam then God will protect Muhammad from them. So, it is actually opposite of telling Muhammad to go and kill them! So, if Muhammad is not even told to kill opposition then why would he be told to kill a simple Muslim (let alone a kid) who just looses his/her faith in Islam and wants to abandon it?

[Quran 5:13] But they broke their pledge, so We distanced them [from Us] and hardened their hearts. They distort the meaning of [revealed] words and have forgotten some of what they were told to remember: you [Prophet] will always find treachery in all but a few of them. Overlook this and pardon them: God loves those who do good."

Here, Muhammad is directed to overlook Jews and Christians who distorted the meanings of their revelation. So, why their God worry about any Muslim kid who finds Islam is not for him?

[Quran 41:33] Who can be better in words than the one who calls towards Allah, and acts righteously and says, “I am one of those who submit themselves (to Allah)”?

Muhammad is asked to set a good example by his speech and his deeds before calling people to Islam. So, it is illogical to think he wanted to set a good example by killing Apostates. How is that setting up a good example?

[Quran 6:115] "The word of your Lord is complete in its truth and justice. No one can change His words: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing"

So, since Quran is complete, any Muslim tries to add some new concept with it - will be at fault with his Lord!
In my opinion - it is a shame that some believers don't consult their own religious book themselves but rely on clerics to tell them about their own faith and it is a shame how some clerics interprets and innovates things to match with their cultural or political backgrounds or in collaboration with their personal desires how they want their religion to be. I personally think - it is probably adopted by some to keep their teenage girls from abandoning their religion or even in some cases eloping with someone from another religion. Some of their teenage girls who are restricted due to cultural reasons in some Muslim countries - may feel it is the religion's fault!
I can see why the enlightened clerics stay quiet against these blind followers who refuse to budge and refused to open their eyes to what their doctrine is really telling them. The knowledgeable ones probably get threatened and accused of being an apostate if they try to show how some false implications have made their way into the religion via unreliable Ahadith. The blind believers don't want anything changed!
In my opinion, any Hadith that contradicts with the Quran should be classified as mistaken explanation or a fabricated lie! It is a simple litmus test. It is that easy to distinguish right Hadith from wrong ones!

Thank you again for your posts in this thread.

 

[BrightShadow]

Thank you again for your posts in this thread.

Anytime!
When someone looks through a sunglass with blue lenses - the whole world will seem blue and when he looks through an orange lenses - it would look orange. Why look through these lenses if he wants to see clear? Why doesn't he want to see clear?

I think many people including many Muslims don't know that Quran can be divided into two parts.

1) A historical document
2) A book of rules and guidelines

Many verses related to the historical parts - if taken out of context can be confusing. Certain verses are regarding certain groups of nonbelievers or certain situations or wars.
President George W Bush gave a speech after 9/11 back in 2001. If someone 1000 years from now listens to that speech out of context when he said "You cannot hide in the caves - we will smoke you out and we will find you and blow you up" - it may seem like he talking about going to war with all Muslims. But he wasn't! He was addressing only those responsible for 9/11. Of course we knew what he was talking about because we knew the context. But a thousand years from now - someone reading one line from that speech may not get the gist.
Similar things are happening with any religious doctrines. But what I don't understand is - in Islam they have a primary doctrine that they claim is not corrupted. So why they don't use it as a gold standard or ultimate standard? Why resort to secondary sources that are written more than 214 years after Muhammad and writings that contradict with their primary source?

People who believe in a creator can be classified into two groups. One is born into their religion - meaning they are introduced to it by their family and then there is another group who actually seek out what denomination of a particular religion they like to be affiliated with. Usually latter is better IMO because they actually seek out and investigate the tenets of a said religion. Total blind faith in any religion is never good! Unfortunately many believers who are born into any said religion - accept many things that is spoon fed to them instead of investigating it for themselves.

I don't have a problem when Islam says that everyone is born a Muslim because any God from any religion can make a similar claim. It is like saying "you are innocent until proven guilty". In other words - you X until you shift away and accept Z because then you are no longer X. So, I would imagine it is superficial!
In my opinion - everything in any given religion must make sense - otherwise there is a good chance it is a flawed concept. In this religion's case - Quran tells Muslims to use reason before adopting anything blindly.

[Quran 8:22] "Indeed, the worst of living creatures in sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason."

Meaning - everything must be questioned before believing and Muslim shouldn't willingly shut down their sense of reasoning!

In the case of any religion - when something doesn't make sense - different people take different approach. Some investigate further and try to find an answer and some rationalize it and try to come up with something that makes somewhat sense to them and unfortunately some just stick with whatever landed on their plate. Of course some abandon that faith system altogether. In my opinion the one who sticks to whatever they are born into without questioning anything - is the worse kind because that is the example of ultimate blind faith!

In any case, a religion shouldn't be just an identification. So, when all human is said to be Muslims - it is probably meant just a "starting point". But of course, if someone don't like this religion - I can see why they can take offense in it. So, it is probably better for Muslims not to rub that in every nonbelievers' face that they are born a Muslim! They wouldn't like it if they are told they are born something else themselves.

 

[paarsurrey]

Another reference is to:

Quran Verse 2:128
وَ اِذۡ یَرۡفَعُ اِبۡرٰہٖمُ الۡقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الۡبَیۡتِ وَ اِسۡمٰعِیۡلُ ؕ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلۡ مِنَّا ؕ اِنَّکَ اَنۡتَ السَّمِیۡعُ الۡعَلِیۡمُ ﴿۱۲۸﴾
And remember the time when Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House, praying, ‘Our Lord, accept this from us; for Thou art All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
2:129
رَبَّنَا وَ اجۡعَلۡنَا مُسۡلِمَیۡنِ* لَکَ وَ مِنۡ ذُرِّیَّتِنَاۤ اُمَّۃً مُّسۡلِمَۃً لَّکَ ۪ وَ اَرِنَا مَنَاسِکَنَا وَ تُبۡ عَلَیۡنَا ۚ اِنَّکَ اَنۡتَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِیۡمُ ﴿۱۲۹﴾
‘Our Lord, make us submissive* to Thee and make of our offspring a people submissive* to Thee. And show us our ways of worship, and turn to us with mercy; for Thou art Oft-Returning with compassion and Merciful.
2:130
رَبَّنَا وَ ابۡعَثۡ فِیۡہِمۡ رَسُوۡلًا مِّنۡہُمۡ یَتۡلُوۡا عَلَیۡہِمۡ اٰیٰتِکَ وَ یُعَلِّمُہُمُ الۡکِتٰبَ وَ الۡحِکۡمَۃَ وَ یُزَکِّیۡہِمۡ ؕ اِنَّکَ اَنۡتَ الۡعَزِیۡزُ الۡحَکِیۡمُ ﴿۱۳۰﴾٪
‘And, our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from among themselves, who may recite to them Thy Signs and teach them the Book and Wisdom and may purify them; surely, Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.’
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
*Muslim
In this sense as per the prayers/supplications of Abraham and Ishmael good people among their offspring (like Isaac Moses, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Jesus, Muhammad) have been named muslim/s even before they were born, please.
Isn't it very natural and reasonable, please?
And in there ^ is also a prophecy for the advent of Muhammad who named his people as Muslims as per the prayers/supplications of Abraham and Ishmael as mentioned above, please. Right?

Even the 12 disciples of Jesus were Muslims/submitters, I understand:
5:112
وَ اِذۡ اَوۡحَیۡتُ اِلَی الۡحَوَارِیّٖنَ اَنۡ اٰمِنُوۡا بِیۡ وَ بِرَسُوۡلِیۡ ۚ قَالُوۡۤا اٰمَنَّا وَ اشۡہَدۡ بِاَنَّنَا مُسۡلِمُوۡنَ ﴿۱۱۲﴾
And when I inspired the disciples of Jesus to believe in Me and in My Messenger, they said, ‘We believe and bear Thou witness that we have submitted.’
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
Right?

Regards

 

[Shakeel]

Hmm - lets say a western society sees people like you as unfit for their society and lets say they give you the option to lie. So they make a law that Muslims are not allowed into their country because they are unfit for their society but they don't "test" if you're a Muslim. You are simply asked if you are a Muslim. You can lie.

Would that be OK with you?

That's their law - the question is, do they also claim to give everyone equal rights and to give everyone religious freedom?

Let's look at the effects of such a law realistically.

I'm listening.

 

[Shakeel]

God in Islam clearly tells Muslims that they do not bear the burden of the wrong choices others make with their religious convictions. God knows who strays from His path! So, it is a personal issue with their God and it is something that he himself will take care of. In other words - He would deal with the ones who departs from the religion - Himself!

[Quran 53:38] "that no soul shall bear the burden of another;"

[Quran 35:18] "No bearer will bear the burden of any other person....."

Are you saying that when a judge judges someone to be deserving of punishment, he is "bearing the burden" of the criminal? What your average judge bears is a particularly good salary and a respected social standing.

Here is a verse that clearly details it...
[Quran 16:125]" Invite (people) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good counsel. And argue with them in the best of manners. Surely, your Lord knows best the one who deviates from His way, and He knows best the ones who are on the right path."

That doesn't even address it.

This kind of decent approach is mentioned in these verses in Quran and on the contrary - there are no verse to suggest that Muslims have to kill apostates!

The law comes from the hadith. The Qur'an tells you to obey the messenger (ﷺ). The Messenger (ﷺ) ordered they should be executed.

Quran is telling Muslims to argue in a kind manner and politely try to convince them to stay with Islam!

The verse may be applied generally. It is not about apostates alone.

 

[Heyo]

That's their law - the question is, do they also claim to give everyone equal rights and to give everyone religious freedom?

I'm listening.

Of course it would be an equal right and religious freedom would also exist, just a bit curtailed in that the rights to life, bodily autonomy, etc would rank higher.
Morally I wouldn't have a problem with treating religions as they like to treat others.

 

[BrightShadow]

Are you saying that when a judge judges someone to be deserving of punishment, he is "bearing the burden" of the criminal? What your average judge bears is a particularly good salary and a respected social standing.

That doesn't even address it.

The law comes from the hadith. The Qur'an tells you to obey the messenger (ﷺ). The Messenger (ﷺ) ordered they should be executed.

The verse may be applied generally. It is not about apostates alone.

There is no problem with Quran telling Muslims to obey the Messenger (Muhammad) but I think it is about following harmless things for extra credits such as extra prayers and maybe everyday rituals. I doubt Quran would tell any Muslims to adopt any directives without convincing evidence that Muhammad actually said it. Ahadith shouldn't contradict with Quran's core teachings! Any Hadith that attempts to make critical changes to what God (in Islam) otherwise suggested in Quran for Muslims to follow - should be deemed an untrustworthy one!

Quran said to follow Muhammad's examples but it also said that Muhammad was not allowed to introduce anything new on his own. Quran says if Muhammad tried to introduce something on his own then he would be severely punished by God. In other words - Muhammad was not above the law and his job was only to deliver the message.

[Quran 69:44-45] And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand......

Had Muhammad suggested killings of Apostate then that would be a huge contradiction to what the Quran teaches and like the verse above says - God in Islam would punish Muhammad severely if he attempts to do so!

I do not know why any Muslim would consider any Hadith and believe that Muhammad actually suggested killings of Apostates. These document weren't even allowed to be written down or circulated during Muhammad's era or even the next century. At least 214 years passed by - before these narrations were even collected by anyone. If I understand correctly - Muhammad's successors didn't allow to write any Sunnah for generations because of fear that it could integrate with the Quran somehow or at least create disputes among Muslims.

If God in Islam really wanted Muslim leaders or Judges to kill Apostates then why wouldn't he write about it in the Quran? This is not a minor thing! Why did be forget to do so?

Anything verbally transmitted among people for generations is bound to lose its true face.

Just check these Ahadith and decide if it is worth believing it. Why believe Hadith such as (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 5686) or (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 231-233)? Drinking Camel pee as medicine? Does that sound authentic?

Common sense should tell any Muslim to question the authenticity of any Hadith that sounds incredibly wrong and doesn't sound like Muhammad directed such things. Muslims IMO should only believe what corresponds with the Quran.

 

[Shakeel]

There is no problem with Quran telling Muslims to obey the Messenger (Muhammad) but I think it is about following harmless things for extra credits such as extra prayers and maybe everyday rituals.

You think it is? Why do you think so?

I doubt Quran would tell any Muslims to adopt any directives without convincing evidence that Muhammad actually said it.

The Qur'an simply tells you to adopt directives from the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ). That automatically means you need to follow the authentic ones - since others aren't from the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ).

The hadith that are authentic have been verified by scholars to be so and to claim they are false is also claiming a massive conspiracy

[taking an unbelievable amount of trouble too:
Free Islamic Books on Hadith]

has been taking place since the time of the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) that has been trying to make Muslim more generous and more obedient - as if Allah hadn't given enough commands to perfect the Muslim lifestyle.

On top of that if one were to accept such conspiracy, how could that same person feel assured about the preservation of the Qur'an that has been recited, taught and learned by those same people he considers to be liars, corrupters and conspirators?

***mod edit***

Furthermore, the Qur'an says in chapter 16, verse 44: "With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect."

According to scholars this refers to both the Qur'an and the Sunnah, but I suppose you disagree? If that is so then do you consider that in the Qur'an, by reciting the Qur'an, the Prophet (ﷺ) made clear what was sent down? If he did, why is it that the rejectors of ahadith can not agree on the simplest of things mentioned in the Qur'an (considering it is, according to the rejectors of ahadith clear and complete, easily understood without any extra text)?

For example, they do not agree on the number of prayers, some of them going so far as to deny that any prayers are even mentioned in the Qur'an. They do not agree on the awrah, some of them going so far as to say that the bottom is not a person's private part and therefore does not need to be covered. They argue over whether alcohol and gambling are prohibited or not and they disagree on fasting ramadan: is it required, how long is it, what does it entail, etc.

Ahadith shouldn't contradict with Quran's core teachings!

Indeed.

Academic methodology dictates that we should examine several important matters before rejecting a hadith or denying that it is the words of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him). These conditions are as follows:

The first condition: We should see whether there is a complete contradiction between what is mentioned in the hadith and what is mentioned in a Qur’anic text that is clear and unambiguous in meaning and not abrogated. We should emphasise here the condition of complete contradiction – and not just an apparent contradiction that may come to the mind of one who hastens to jump to conclusions when examining hadith. Perhaps those who are involved in denying the hadiths will agree with us on this condition, because most of the apparent contradictions that occur to many people are not contradictions in reality; rather they are mere speculation in the mind of the objector and it is possible, with deliberation and by examining the shades of meaning of different words, to answer the one who thinks that there is a contradiction, and demonstrate how the hadith is in harmony with the fundamentals and sublime aims of sharee‘ah.

Ruling on one who rejects a saheeh hadith - Islam Question & Answer

Quran said to follow Muhammad's examples but it also said that Muhammad was not allowed to introduce anything new on his own. Quran says if Muhammad tried to introduce something on his own then he would be severely punished by God. In other words - Muhammad was not above the law and his job was only to deliver the message.

We agree.

Had Muhammad suggested killings of Apostate then that would be a huge contradiction to what the Quran teaches and like the verse above says - God in Islam would punish Muhamma

It doesn't contradict the Qur'an at all.

I do not know why any Muslim would consider any Hadith and believe that Muhammad actually suggested killings of Apostates.

Because the ahadith have been proven to be authentic and are in perfect harmony with the Qur'an. Don't you know how many apostates make it their job to try to corrupt Islam and Muslims? Have you considered the harm that brings? Do you know what is the punishment for treason in the United States?

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason

These document weren't even allowed to be written down or circulated during Muhammad's era or even the next century.

That's not true. Hadiths were written down even during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ). Imam Bukhari's book was not the first of books of hadith.

I don't have time to address the rest now. Maybe later.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is a justification for it; it is the law of Allah. There is no better justification than that. I didn't mention the steps to justify it, I mentioned them because they exist.

Maybe you should try to justify it. Without resorting to the morally bankrupt "Islam says it, that settles it".

If Islam is "good", if Islam is "moral", then surely you should be able to actually justify the rules it sets out without resorting to "because islam said it" and instead actually provide the underlying moral argument which explains its moral justification.

But you can't do that, can you?
Because let's be honest here..... there is NO CONTEXT in which it is EVER morally justifiable to kill 11-year olds (or anyone else, for that matter) just for the beliefs they hold (or don't hold).


It's morally bankrupt barbarism from top to bottom.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Feel free to show how we are "sociopathic".

You have sacrificed your moral compass in favor of blind obedience to a perceived authority.

Your own words: if islam prescribes killing children, you have no problem with that.

That's literally "islam said it, that settles it".

No reason, no argument, no morality, no ethics, no empathy.

Just blind obedience to perceived authority.

I am 100% certain most people find it idiotic to tell the truth when a little lie prevents you from getting killed.

Completely depends on the specifics of the situation.
Sometimes, having the courage to say the truth is more important then your own life.

How about, "I'm very empathetic, excuse me while I teach my child Islam so that he would not burn in hell for an eternity."

Doesn't change anything about how you sacrificed your human dignity, integrity and moral compass in favor of blind obedience to a perceived authority.

"Befehl ist befehl".

The punishment of execution protects the society and everyone in it.

Please, share with us all your "sensible argument" that explains and shows how killing 11-year olds is beneficial for society?

Probably to everyone, but their victims and maybe even to some of them.

What victims?

Are you going to tell us all nazis were sociopaths, too? I'm afraid you can't blame that on mental illness either.

Just like you, Nazi's were hung up on a dogma and sacrificed their moral compass in favor of blind obedience to a perceived authority.

Befehl ist befehl.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

II don't know what loving children has to do with it

You don't know what loving children has to do with resenting the idea of KILLING CHILDREN??????

And then you wonder why people question your moral motivations, your empathy or your sanity.....

People who love dogs get the dog killed if it attacks them and it results to great harm. Love is conditional.

So now we are comparing a child who simply doesn't believe the claims of a certain religion with DOGS that ATTACK people??????

Also, I do believe you're a woman? If that's the case and he is a good friend of yours... Then he's not a conservative Muslim.

So you are against social bonding and friendships as well.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I told you - women are emotional.

Any person that actually has a moral compass and a rational mind, would get emotional reading the despicable, barbaric, immoral, psychopathic drivel you write here.