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Isn’t Atheism a faith-based non-religion?

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
That's not what I wrote. I said: 0.999999.... minus 0.9 = 0.99999....

Perhaps you need to pay closer attention to what's being written?

What? That is exactly what I wrote that you wrote, lol. That makes your post #338 very funny :)

So, you really seem to insist that

0.999999.... minus 0.9 = 0.99999....

Are you serious? A number minus another number pretty close to 1, gives the same initial number?

Here you have your opportunity to close the conversation. Tell me that this is really what you believe and I will rest my case. For obvious reasons.

Ciao

- viole
 
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Acim

Revelation all the time
I Can live with that with one final tune up ;)

To assume: To think something is true or probable - Cool!
Faith: To be certain that something is true even if there is no evidence to support it or there is evidence to disprove it.

Sorry, can't agree to that last one. I have dictionary (primary) definition to back up my understanding of faith.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Does not really matter, it is still wrong.
And before you start with your semantics, I trust a calculator in the matter of subtracting 0.9 from 0.999999 more so than I trust your answer.

The 0.999999 (finite) number you are writing here is not what is up for discussion, but I can understand why you say what you said.

Oh, and what I said was not wrong.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
What? That is exactly what I wrote that you wrote, lol. That makes your post #338 very funny :)

It wasn't exactly (identical to) what I wrote. Thus, even more funny from my perspective.

So, you really seem to insist that

0.999999.... minus 0.9 = 0.99999....

Are you serious? A number minus another number pretty close to 1, gives the same initial number?

I am serious. I'm not sure I see the initial number as a number, unless I limit the scope of what is being represented with that (alleged) number.

Here you have your opportunity to close the conversation. Tell me that this is really what you believe and I will rest my case. For obvious reasons.

I honestly thought you rested it before when we went through all this and you failed to convince me to see it the way you do. But I dunno, next time you bring it up on open forum, we can go through all this again?
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
They have faith in doubt. Right? Please

Regards
Depends on what you mean by faith. If we want to remove all meaning from the word and stretch it to the point it no longer serves a purpouse then yes. But there are fundamental differences between faith based beliefs and evidence based beliefs. The philisophical game I think you are trying to play is that we must have baseless faith that evidence is real through some kind of existential void or bubble that we are all traped in wherein we can only ever utilize exoteric evidence without esoteric knowledge that teh exoteric is even reliable.

But that is a rabbit hole and self defeating in and of itself. So to avoid that I would say no. Evidenced based beliefs are not the same as faith based beliefs.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Isn’t Atheism a faith-based non-religion?
They have faith in doubt. Right?
I think it is the other way around, paarsurrey.

Atheists have "doubts" in faith.

Edit:

Oops! I have just read and realise that Onyx have already said this. Sorry, Onyx.​

Atheism is indeed, not a religion...but there are some religions that have atheistic flavour, and Buddhism and Confucianism are the biggest examples of religions that's non-theism.

The Ahmadis are said to believe in the Buddha to be one of the Islamic prophets, but as far as I can tell, Siddhārtha Gautama don't accept in belief in any god, let alone the Abrahamic notion of the One God.

To Gautama, acceptance or believing in a god or gods, is not relevant to his teachings. The whole idea of Buddhism is that man can transcend his physical boundaries through bodhi, or the awakening or enlightenment, without dive help from any divine beings.

Actually, I think Confucianism is more philosophy than a religion. Confucius don't believe in any god, so he didn't worship this Allah that people (Muslims) who follow Islam or your sect Ahmadiyya. He didn't god, but he did do ancestor worship.

Personally, I think Mirza Ghulum Ahmad is nothing more than attention-seeking quack, by trying to associate his personal religion with very wise or not so-wise sages, turning them into prophets, like the Buddha, Confucius, Zoroaster and Krishna, and each one have no association with Islam.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
............
The Ahmadis are said to believe in the Buddha to be one of the Islamic prophets, but as far as I can tell, Siddhārtha Gautama don't accept in belief in any god, let alone the Abrahamic notion of the One God.
Peace be on all.
Such understaning about Buddha were not hollow claims:

""The erroneous popular belief in the Godless origin of Buddhism was spread largely by the Western scholars of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Their knowledge of Buddhism was largely based on the translations of Buddhist literature from the Pali language by Buddhist scholars who had permitted their own biased, godless philosophy to influence their translations. Few among them understood the Pali language, which is the language of the source material. Moreover, instead of drawing their own inferences directly from a study of reliable Buddhist sources, they leaned entirely on the beliefs about Buddhism prevailing among the major Buddhist sects.


Contrary to this general trend of Western scholars, a solitary voice in India was raised by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmadasof Qadian (1835–1908), who presented a diametrically opposed view. He maintained that Buddhaas had firm belief in the existence of God who Himself had raised him as His messenger with a specific mission to perform. He demonstrated that Buddhaas, like all other prophets of God, also believed in the existence of Satan, as well as in heaven and hell, in angels and in the Day of Resurrection. Hence, the allegation that Buddhaas did not believe in God is pure fabrication. What Buddha rejected was Vedanta (i.e. doctrines and beliefs found in the Hindu sacred books, the Vedas). He rejected the belief in corporeal manifestations of gods as found in Hinduism. He was severely critical of the Brahmans and regarded them to have corrupted their Divine teaching through their distorted interpretation.​

The voice of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmadas was not to remain solitary for long. Soon, other voices from among the second generation of Western scholars and researchers on Buddhism began to follow suit. The most prominent among them was the great French scholar Dr. Gustav Le Bon (1841–1931) who writes:

Unfortunately, the study of Indian monuments has been completely neglected by European scholars. The specialists of Indian studies, through whom we have come to learn of Buddhism, had never visited India. They had only studied this religion in books; an unfortunate twist of fate made them chance upon the works of philosophical sects written five or six centuries after the death of Buddha, these being absolutely alien to the religion practised in reality. The metaphysical speculations which had so astonished Europeans by their profoundity were in fact nothing new. Ever since the books of India have been better known, these have been found in the writings of philosophical sects which had developed during the Brahmanic period.* 1 ""

Ref: https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_2.html

........ Confucius don't believe in any god, so he didn't worship this Allah that people (Muslims) who follow Islam or your sect Ahmadiyya. He didn't god, but he did do ancestor worship.

Again we have solid reasons to negate your idea:

""From in-depth study of classical Confucian literature, it is not difficult to prove that Confucianism is not a man-made philosophy at its origin. It did embrace the idea of one immortal God, from Whom its teachings originated and Who is believed to govern the universe. "Heaven" is a manifestation of that God, and as such sometimes He Himself is referred to as Heaven. Confucianism considers true knowledge to consist of understanding the attributes of God and adopting them in one's own conduct. This brings man closer to eternal truth and serves as a source of knowledge for his benefit.""

Details in https://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_3.html

Personally, I think Mirza Ghulum Ahmad is nothing more than attention-seeking quack, by trying to associate his personal religion with very wise or not so-wise sages, turning them into prophets, like the Buddha, Confucius, Zoroaster and Krishna, and each one have no association with Islam.
Your personal thinking is wrong because Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (on whom be peace) did not need any attention, this job was well done by fanatics who passed verdicts of infidelity against him and took these to various countries outside India........His argument was based on teaching of Holy Quran which said God sent Prophets in each nation. He argued that God do not let spread honour of false for so long in so many people [though current teachings of their religions are corrupted]......All these Holy men of God brought the same message of One God worship Him and pay rights of His creation. This is the core message of all religions.

====

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (on whom be peace) wrote in his book A Gift for the Queen :
""He established me upon utmost pristine principles which are beneficial to humanity. One of the principles upon which I have been established is the following: God has informed me that of the religions which have spread and are firmly established in the world through Prophets, holding sway over a part of the world and achieving survival and long life, none was false in its origin. Nor were any of those Prophets false, because it is the eternal practice of God that a false prophet who lies against God—who is not from God, but dares to forge things from him—never prospers. God destroys such an audacious person who says that he is from God while God knows full well that he is not from Him. All his machinations are shattered, all of his followers are disbanded, and his future is worse than his past because he told a lie against God and brazenly maligned God. God does not give him the honour that is given to the righteous, and neither does He grant him the acceptance and stability, which is reserved for the true prophets.

The question may arise that if this is the case then why did those religions spread in the world in whose books creatures—such as humans, stones, angels, sun, moon, stars, fire, water or air, etc.—have been accepted as deities?

The answer is that such religions are either from people who did not claim to be prophets and recipients of divine revelation and communication, but were inclined towards creature-worship through the falsity of their own thinking and understanding; or there were some religions whose foundation was in fact laid by a true prophet of God but their true teachings were forgotten with the passage of time.

The followers of the latter turned to creature-worship by taking some similes or parables literally. The fact is that those prophets did not teach such a religion. It is not the fault of those prophets, as they brought a wholesome and pure teaching; rather, the ignorant followers assigned perverted meaning to their statements.
...
...

Therefore, this law is part of the eternal practice of Almighty God that He does not grant respite to a false prophet. Such a person is soon seized and suffers his punishment. In view of this, we shall honour and accept as true all those who claimed to be prophets at any time, and their claim was established and their religion became widespread and flourished over a long period. If we should discover mistakes in the scriptures of their religions or should observe the misconduct of their followers, we should not attribute these faults and shortcomings to the founders of these religions, inasmuch as the perversion of scriptures is possible and it is possible that mistakes of interpretation might find their way into the commentaries.
..
..

Therefore, this principle is an ultimate truth and endless blessing, and withal lays the foundation for conciliation, in that we affirm the truthfulness of all prophets whose religion has been well-established, has survived for a long time period and has had millions enter its fold.
...
...

Therefore, this principle lays down the foundation of love, peace and harmony, and supports moral values, in that we consider all those prophets true who appeared in the world—whether in India, or Persia or China or any other country. God instilled their respect and grandeur in the hearts of millions and made firm the roots of their religion, which remained established for centuries. This is the principle that the Qur’an teaches us. In light of this principle, we honour all religious founders who fall under this description whether they are the founders of the religion of the Hindus, or the religion of the Persians, or the religion of the Chinese, or the religion of the Jews or the religion of the Christians. Unfortunately, our adversaries cannot treat us this way, and they do not bear in mind the pristine and unalterable law of God that He does not give that blessing and honour to a false prophet that He bestows upon the true one.
...
...

Therefore, people subscribing to this kind of belief—who defame the prophets of other nations by declaring them false—are always enemies of peace and harmony, because there is no greater mischief than abusing the elders of other nations. Sometimes a person would rather die than hear disparaging words for his elders. If we have an objection over the teaching of a religion, we should not attack the honour of the prophet of that religion or mention him in an unseemly manner. Rather, we should object only on the current practices of that nation.""

Ref: http://www.reviewofreligions.org/8304/respect-for-all-religions-and-holy-personages/
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I honestly thought you rested it before when we went through all this and you failed to convince me to see it the way you do. But I dunno, next time you bring it up on open forum, we can go through all this again?

Alright. But I would not know where to start it. Science and Technology seems an overshoot. Maybe we need a new forum. Something like Basic Arithmetics ;)

Ciao

- viole
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Sorry, can't agree to that last one. I have dictionary (primary) definition to back up my understanding of faith.
Okey.. So If I tell you I Have faith the earth is flat..
What will you make of that?
I Can tell you that I have so much Faith in that, that as I see it, everyone who thinks other wise is either disregarding the evidence or is part of a scientific conspiracy that tries to control humanity and prevent us from knowing the truth.
(I am not really BTW.. I Think "flat earthers" are funny and imaginative, yet dead wrong ;))
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Okey.. So If I tell you I Have faith the earth is flat..
What will you make of that?

That you trust the evidence which supports the idea that the earth is flat.

I Can tell you that I have so much Faith in that, that as I see it, everyone who thinks other wise is either disregarding the evidence or is part of a scientific conspiracy that tries to control humanity and prevent us from knowing the truth.
(I am not really BTW.. I Think "flat earthers" are funny and imaginative, yet dead wrong ;))

So, you're playing around with the idea and trying a bit to take up the other position, to make some sense of it, but to really just point out how ridiculous you find it.

Me, I do similar thing, but on this one, am not so prone to go to the ridiculous. I think the planet can be both round and observably flat. From either perspective, you'd need the macroscopic view (of the world from a distance of great height) to verify if it is entirely round or entirely flat. But it is clearly, at the individual ground level, observably flat. Thus, I can understand why someone might make that claim, given the observation. But I'd say they are mistaking illusion of observation from physical eyes with what is also fairly well known via other observations, including the macroscopic one.
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
That you trust the evidence which supports the idea that the earth is flat.
And do you think that if now 70% of the people on earth will have that same trust is something positive or not?
So, you're playing around with the idea and trying a bit to take up the other position, to make some sense of it, but to really just point out how ridiculous you find it.
Of course, I find it ridiculous. But unfortunately ,millions of people don't. why? because they rely on faith and they manage to affect other people who have no desire to study and realise that they have faith in something that is utterly wrong.
I'll give you a challenge..
Let's play a game where you need to prove to me that the earth is not flat.
 

ukok102nak

Active Member
~;> as they say
humans have some faith that they cannot walk easily on every sidewalls
nor
humans can walk easily from any place
as some thought its just like
a walk in the park
if it is on a flat solid surface

also
on a flat slippery floor
even from the firey hot stairways
is not an easy walk
the same thing if somebody wants to jump on a
good game
everyone may also even walk out on a good game
if everyone were watching upside down
literally
even if the ceiling is flat its realy hard to walk upside down
as some people sayin this like talkin unto the things that are not humans
inside the planet earth which sometimes
kinda really freakin us out

did anyone here
asked by someone from sometime before on how come there are some things
that is spherically round in shape
but inside of it is flat where anyone could live inside of it
freely
without getting hurt
as what they told us why they asked that question
for some people tried to walk inside on a giant ball just like what they always do
on the ground and though they can walked straight inside on that giant ball
and even change the direction
of that giant ball just like drivin a vehicle
back and forth
to and fro
but still
they just cant reproduce the same result
as what they've experienced
outside that giant ball

so is there anyone here been asked by the same way that those some people
from sometime before did
on how come there are some things
that is
spherically round in shape but inside of it is flat
where anyone could live inside of it freely without getting hurt
just askin
if we may say so


:ty:




godbless
unto all always
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
And do you think that if now 70% of the people on earth will have that same trust is something positive or not?

For the 70%, it would be positive and for the other 30% it may not.

Of course, I find it ridiculous. But unfortunately ,millions of people don't. why? because they rely on faith and they manage to affect other people who have no desire to study and realise that they have faith in something that is utterly wrong.
I'll give you a challenge..
Let's play a game where you need to prove to me that the earth is not flat.

I'll play the game, but do wish to dispute part of what you're saying which I think has to do with the game being played.

You say, "because they rely on faith" and I think it's a bit of that, but more that they rely on rationale that is very skeptical of evidence that says otherwise, thus more in vein of reasoning than in vein of (mere) faith. For, if I offer any reason, rational consideration during the game, I think it would be disingenuous to claim that only is matter of faith (and not of reason). But if that is part of the way the game may be played, then I say be prepared to have that type of thinking turned on any counter claims you may make.

Let the game begin:

Proof the earth is not flat - Round 1
- first one must ask and understand what is meant by idea of 'flat earth.' Is this only based on observations directly made about land formation, where stretches of the earth appear flat, or non-curved?'
- If yes, then we shall seek evidence or observations of other parts of the planet in which observations and determinations are made that challenge the idea of flat earth.
- If no, and the idea is based on other information, then please introduce that into the game/discussion.
 

Kartari

Active Member
globe_west_2048.jpg


Sorry to interject in the game between Acim and Segev, but... I couldn't resist. :)
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
For the 70%, it would be positive and for the other 30% it may not.
This makes it a dangerous game... What if 70% of people believed that it is ok to beat children who disobey their parents... Do you think it will be acceptable? Even if the children think it is also okay to be beaten?
You say, "because they rely on faith" and I think it's a bit of that, but more that they rely on rationale that is very skeptical of evidence that says otherwise
Isn't that exactly what Faith is? Believing something to be true NOT based on facts?
thus more in vein of reasoning than in vein of (mere) faith.
How would you define reason? In a way, I can find anything to be reasonable and find justifications for it.
I Can find it reasonable to execute people who say I am not a God... Is it Ok? Is it based on Reason really?
Would you call someone that makes decisions in his life based on things that have no secular reality to be reasonable?
For, if I offer any reason, rational consideration during the game, I think it would be disingenuous to claim that only is matter of faith (and not of reason). But if that is part of the way the game may be played, then I say be prepared to have that type of thinking turned on any counter claims you may make.
The idea of the game is show that I can "reason" craziest claims without you having any way to contradict them...
Let the game begin:
Yey ;)

Proof the earth is not flat - Round 1
- first one must ask and understand what is meant by idea of 'flat earth.' Is this only based on observations directly made about land formation, where stretches of the earth appear flat, or non-curved?'
First of all it is based on Einstein's explanation that one can never know whether the effects of gravity are caused due to being pulled down towards an Object (Earth for that matter) or that the Object is pushed against me.
It is also based on the fact that any event or phenomenon we experience in nature can be clearly explained with the fact the earth is flat.
The theory it self is very very vast, so I cannot even start explaining it as a whole, rather I will address each question or topic you have.
- If yes, then we shall seek evidence or observations of other parts of the planet in which observations and determinations are made that challenge the idea of flat earth.
There are none! The only thing that can evident the opposite, is observing earth from outside.. As no one really ever done that, you cannot use this as an evidence to contradict the fact the earth is actually flat!
- If no, and the idea is based on other information, then please introduce that into the game/discussion.
Fair enough..
I'll give you some pin points and we will go from there...
Before going along with this, I Just want to make sure you understand that I am NOT really thinking the earth is flat.. It is absurd to me and I can make many arguments against it.. but the idea of the game is to show how easily it is to dismiss any valid fact or claim when the only thing leading you is your own (or others) reason and not actual facts.
Back to the game...
Lets start with Einsteins claim that one cannot distinguish between a force pulling you down to a force pushing against you. So the entire concept of gravity is not certain.
Second, If you'll check the original maps (Including NASA, Airlines, Ships etc) you'll see that they use a flat earth map. This matches exactly the structure of earth as we know it. An important thing to note is that there are no straight line flights across the globe. they are all in a circular path.
The sun and the moon are actually rotating above the earth. this movement is what causes the seasons.
You can see a short movie explaining it in more depth:

There is no place on earth that suggests the earth is spherical in shape. when you look at the horizon, it is flat. It is merely optical illusion at times that makes it seem round.
If you'll examine photos taken from above with high quality cams, you'll notice the earth appears flat:

Let's start with that and continue after.
 
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