Isn’t Islam an idol worshiping religion?

[K.Venugopal]

You'll use English and Latin, yet ignore the Arabic?? Again, even if you can twist English and Latin words around to make it fit, it isn't shirk, which I'm fairly certain is the Islamic concept you meant by "idolatry", as that is what "shirk" is translated to.

Shirk is simply worshiping anything or anyone other than Allah. In worship of Allah the word Allah is irreplaceable. Allah the word is material as are all sounds as opposed to silence.

 

[Salek Atesh]

Dear Salek Atesh: When I brought up this subject of idol-worship in Islam I have in no way indicated that Muslims make material idol of Allah and worship it as the Hindus do of their Gods. What makes the idolatry case against Islam valid would be understood only if it is accepted that Islam is a dualistic religion. The only non-dualistic religions existing are within the folds of Hinduism which is very much also a dualistic religion.

If the definition of idolatry that you are using does not match that of those of the Islamic faith, then of what matter is it??

Your definition of idolatry also does not match the English definition of the word.

Thus I find your whole position somewhat immaterial. You are creating new definitions for words and thus associating them with a religion. This is true by your own definition, but is not at all true by the English or Islamic definition, so of what use is this??

I can say Hinduism is a Lobster by redefining what "lobster" means, but there is no point in this action.

Every single definition I find of "idol" in English dictionaries either makes it clear that it is a material object, or states that it is an object that represents a different object of worship.
Idol | Define Idol at Dictionary.com
[url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idol"]Idol - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary[/URL]

Why should I use your definition??

 

[Neglected Lighthouse]

"Shirk" means having partners with Allah in Godhood! For example one of the beliefs in Islam is that God is the only one who restricts or enlarges provision and sustenance and that if he decides to send a good or harm to anyone no one and nothing can stop it; Having this belief if someone steals your money you do not over-react, you know that your money was stolen under the watchful eyes of God and that he allowed this to happen to you, you do as you should and even if you capture the thief you do not exceed in your punishment, in other words you do not show/spend so much personal hate or love unnecessarily over such trivial things, in fact when something happens you immediately should be alerted that God is again testing you so how you should best control your intentions and behavior/responses! However if you over react and say oh this world, why all the bad things happen to me and etc... a wise man would immediately detect different levels of the stench of shirk in you even if you says I only worship God!

"Only in worship of the subject would there be no idol-worship. Because there the worshiper and the worshiped are one and the same."

You are stuck in objective/subjective platform in which mind is the center. "I think, so I am!" This is a very arrogant view. Even now there is no clear definition of the mind. Suffice to say in Qur'an there are three layers of heart and not even one mention of the Arabic word ذهن (mind) or its derivatives. You can not understand Islamic view without first understanding the key terminology on which it is built upon. Similarly when you want to understand what a particular philosopher means and is saying you have to understand his terms and conditions!

 

[K.Venugopal]

Every single definition I find of "idol" in English dictionaries either makes it clear that it is a material object, or states that it is an object that represents a different object of worship.

Dear Salek Atesh: My contention that idols need not necessarily be limited to solid objects has been refuted by you by quoting the dictionary meaning of the word idol. I was curious to know what the Quran itself has to say about the word idol. It appears that the Quran too does not go by the limited meaning of idol to mean only solid objects. The Quran goes so far as to include ego as as idol that should not be worshiped. I am quoting from the following site which I suppose is a genuine and authoritative Islamic site.

Idol worship, the Unforgivable Sin

Ego as an idol.
This is a common form of idolatry. Most humans, because of their ego cannot bring themselves to worship God, nor can they make their opinion subordinate to God's opinion spelled out in the Quran because of their ego. If we disobey God and His messenger, we are committing idol worship even though there is no image in front of us. This is because we would be giving our opinion more importance than God's words.

[25:43] Have you seen the one whose god is his own ego? Will you be his advocate?

[45:23] Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?


Furthermore the Quran says even those who uphold Hadith and Sunna are idolaters

[6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran* has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

Footnote: *6:19 This verse proclaims the Quran as the only source of religious guidance. Those who uphold additional sources, such as Hadith & Sunna (lies attributed to the Prophet), are defined as idolaters.

Please comment on my quotes. Do you accept that idol worship is not confined to worship of material objects alone in the Quran?

 

[psychoslice]

I find that religions that teaches and are against idol worship, are the most idol worshipping people, their idol becomes their very teaching of idol worshiping. They are obsessed, and will try to do anything that seems to be idol worshipping, to not be an idol worshipper. They are always thinking about what they believe to be idols, and they do anything they can not to do that, so their whole life is an idol, an idol of not trying to be an idol.

 

[Salek Atesh]

Dear Salek Atesh: My contention that idols need not necessarily be limited to solid objects has been refuted by you by quoting the dictionary meaning of the word idol. I was curious to know what the Quran itself has to say about the word idol. It appears that the Quran too does not go by the limited meaning of idol to mean only solid objects. The Quran goes so far as to include ego as as idol that should not be worshiped. I am quoting from the following site which I suppose is a genuine and authoritative Islamic site.

Idol worship, the Unforgivable Sin

Ego as an idol.
This is a common form of idolatry. Most humans, because of their ego cannot bring themselves to worship God, nor can they make their opinion subordinate to God's opinion spelled out in the Quran because of their ego. If we disobey God and His messenger, we are committing idol worship even though there is no image in front of us. This is because we would be giving our opinion more importance than God's words.

[25:43] Have you seen the one whose god is his own ego? Will you be his advocate?

[45:23] Have you noted the one whose god is his ego? Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes. Who then can guide him, after such a decision by GOD? Would you not take heed?


Furthermore the Quran says even those who uphold Hadith and Sunna are idolaters

[6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran* has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside GOD." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."

Footnote: *6:19 This verse proclaims the Quran as the only source of religious guidance. Those who uphold additional sources, such as Hadith & Sunna (lies attributed to the Prophet), are defined as idolaters.

Please comment on my quotes. Do you accept that idol worship is not confined to worship of material objects alone in the Quran?

Yes, I've also explained the definition of "shirk", translated as "idolatry" above. Which, again, is "the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God." Literally translates to "making partners with God." Allah is excluded, the only thing excluded, from this particular definition of "idolatry"/"shirk". Your thesis thus doesn't work by the Quranic definition either.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Yes, I've also explained the definition of "shirk", translated as "idolatry" above. Which, again, is "the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God." Literally translates to "making partners with God." Allah is excluded, the only thing excluded, from this particular definition of "idolatry"/"shirk". Your thesis thus doesn't work by the Quranic definition either.

Islam says only Allah is to be worshiped. Other religions say only their Gods should be worshiped. Nothing unique in that. My point is if Quran says even worshiping "ego" is tantamount to idol worship - you will have to concede that your contention that "idol" is restricted only to gross material object is not sustainable.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I would personally consider Islam an idol worshiping religion. Because of the vagueness of Allah many Muslims resort to idolatry apparently. This seems to be the function of the Kaaba, which is a compromise.

 

[Salek Atesh]

...worshiping "ego" is tantamount to idol worship...

Worshipping "ego" is tantamount to "shirk." I've explained now several times that the word translated commonly into "idolatry" is "shirk". I've explained the definition of shirk. You must thus realize why worshipping Allah is not shirk. So why does a quote that says that "worshipping ego is tantamount to shirk" imply that worship of Allah could be classed shirk??

The English "idol" does not make sense applied to Allah.
The Arabic "shirk" does not make sense applied to Allah.

You seem to be trying to construe a new, separate definition of "idol worship" based on the English translation of the Koran but ignoring the Arabic version. That's not really a linguistically valid position to take.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Worshipping "ego" is tantamount to "shirk." I've explained now several times that the word translated commonly into "idolatry" is "shirk". I've explained the definition of shirk. You must thus realize why worshipping Allah is not shirk. So why does a quote that says that "worshipping ego is tantamount to shirk" imply that worship of Allah could be classed shirk??

The English "idol" does not make sense applied to Allah.
The Arabic "shirk" does not make sense applied to Allah.

You seem to be trying to construe a new, separate definition of "idol worship" based on the English translation of the Koran but ignoring the Arabic version. That's not really a linguistically valid position to take.

Are you saying that the Quran talks only about Shirk and says nothing about idol worship?

 

[Salek Atesh]

Are you saying that the Quran talks only about Shirk and says nothing about idol worship?

"says nothing about idol worship" is a bit misleading of a statement. It says things about "idol worship", as that is what the English translation of shirk is made to be. The meaning of the English "idolatry" and Arabic "shirk" are, while similar in some ways, not equivalent much like many sets of words in separate languages.

The words used are either shirk or taghut. Both terms refer to worship of something other than Allah. There is also mention of worshipping statues, which would probably be the closest thing to English "idolatry" found. So you have shirk, taghut, or statue worship to work from with the Arabic/Quranic terminology used. Neither apply to your desired definition, unfortunately.

 

[K.Venugopal]

"says nothing about idol worship" is a bit misleading of a statement. It says things about "idol worship", as that is what the English translation of shirk is made to be. The meaning of the English "idolatry" and Arabic "shirk" are, while similar in some ways, not equivalent much like many sets of words in separate languages.

The words used are either shirk or taghut. Both terms refer to worship of something other than Allah. There is also mention of worshipping statues, which would probably be the closest thing to English "idolatry" found. So you have shirk, taghut, or statue worship to work from with the Arabic/Quranic terminology used. Neither apply to your desired definition, unfortunately.

If you are saying that for all practical purposes Quran talks about only Shirk then my charge that Islam is an idol worshiping religion is valid because Shirk refers only to worshiping of objects or ideas other than Allah. But Allah has placed Himself outside the worshiper and also states that He is not omnipresent - that is Allah is not everywhere. It does not say Allah is nowhere. If it does that would be funny. "Somewhere" when compared to "everywhere" is limited. The worship of that which limited is idol worship. Saying that Allah is unlimited and simultaneously saying that Allah is not everywhere is a contradiction. I agree that it is difficult for Muslims to understand what I am saying because Muslims are not exposed to the idea of non-duality.

 

[Salek Atesh]

If you are saying that for all practical purposes Quran talks about only Shirk then my charge that Islam is an idol worshiping religion is valid because Shirk refers only to worshiping of objects or ideas other than Allah. But Allah has placed Himself outside the worshiper and also states that He is not omnipresent - that is Allah is not everywhere. It does not say Allah is nowhere. If it does that would be funny. "Somewhere" when compared to "everywhere" is limited. The worship of that which limited is idol worship. Saying that Allah is unlimited and simultaneously saying that Allah is not everywhere is a contradiction. I agree that it is difficult for Muslims to understand what I am saying because Muslims are not exposed to the idea of non-duality.

Hinduism is a Lobster, my friend. Deal with it.

Certainly, the English definition of Lobster doesn't fit Hinduism. Neither does the Hindi word for Lobster fit the definition of Hinduism.

But it fits my own made-up on-the-spot definition that I use, even though no one else uses it. Thus, Hinduism is naught more than a Lobster, and this is something you must accept.

Seriously, good sir. The above logic makes as much sense to me as what you are talking about. This concept fits no English speaker, nor Arabic speaker's definition of "idolatry", and only fits your own. What grants you this authority to be correct in your own definition of this word, despite the dissenting opinion of every other human being??

I understand what you are trying to say. But this is not "idolatry" in the sense of any meaningful definition of that word present in English or Quranic terms. The languages relevant cannot be twisted into this meaning.

Or accept Hinduism as a Lobster.

 

[Nietzsche]

Islam says only Allah is to be worshiped. Other religions say only their Gods should be worshiped. Nothing unique in that. My point is if Quran says even worshiping "ego" is tantamount to idol worship - you will have to concede that your contention that "idol" is restricted only to gross material object is not sustainable.

I would argue that, given my understanding of Islam, 'Allah' is far less anthropomorphized than the Christian version of Yahweh/Abba. There is a reason that most of Judaism does not see Islam as an idolatry. In Islam, Allah is much more like the Judaic YHWH, in that 'he' is more a force of nature, great & terrible(albeit still more compassionate than the Judaic YHWH).

 

[Slaedi7324]

That's like saying a polytheistic religion is strictly monotheist. Just stupid.

Islam is objectively speaking, one of the most monotheistic religions I have ever read about, Judaism comes second in terms of monotheism. Learn about Tahwhid, it even reject the "monotheism" of Christianity due to its high standardized criteria.

Shirk is simply worshiping anything or anyone other than Allah. In worship of Allah the word Allah is irreplaceable.

Wrong. It means what is polytheistic, idolatry, pantheistic, anthropomorphizing [God], etc.

Jewish concept of God is technically not shirk, Brahman (excluding the incarnations, etc.) is also not shirk. Shirk does not mean non-Islamic deity-worship.

This seems to be the function of the Kaaba, which is a compromise.

Muslims do not worship the Kaaba as an idol. They pray towards it, not to it.

It's just a shrine and according to Sunnah, we have it as sacred as a way to honor Muhammad. It's Islamic history for Muslims to remember the building that quite changed billion of peoples lives.

 

[Nietzsche]

That's like saying a polytheistic religion is strictly monotheist. Just stupid.

Who was this directed towards?

 

[Slaedi7324]

General to several in the comments that thought it was an idol-worshiping religion.

 

[Nietzsche]

General to several in the comments that thought it was an idol-worshiping religion.

Ah, righto. I was afraid you were replying to me.