Isn't Ignorance Bliss?

[Meesheltx]

It has been an on-going debate amongst my friends and I what happens to those people who have never heard of Jesus...how can they be saved? I have found that most people believe either that there is an exception for those people and they will go to heaven anyway OR they will go to hell and that is why missionaries exist...to make sure everybody has a chance. Well, giving God the benefit of the doubt, I would assume that there would be an exception for these people and they don't HAVE to except Jesus as their savior and yadda yadda yadda. But if that is the case, shouldn't we just STOP spreading the word? Wouldn't that result in getting more people into heaven? Or would that be wrong since it is the duty of a Christian to spread the word? If thats the case....then I don't understand why that is the duty of a Christian...it seems kinda odd and unnecessary.
Discuss!

 

[dan]

It has been an on-going debate amongst my friends and I what happens to those people who have never heard of Jesus...how can they be saved? I have found that most people believe either that there is an exception for those people and they will go to heaven anyway OR they will go to hell and that is why missionaries exist...to make sure everybody has a chance. Well, giving God the benefit of the doubt, I would assume that there would be an exception for these people and they don't HAVE to except Jesus as their savior and yadda yadda yadda. But if that is the case, shouldn't we just STOP spreading the word? Wouldn't that result in getting more people into heaven? Or would that be wrong since it is the duty of a Christian to spread the word? If thats the case....then I don't understand why that is the duty of a Christian...it seems kinda odd and unnecessary.
Discuss!

Hey, my brother lives in Las Colinas. I'm gonna be movin' back to Richardson in a week.

There is no "exception" for people who don't know of Christ. You cannot be condemned in ignorance, but nor can you be saved in ignorance. God has provided a way for the deceased to hear the Gospel and receive the necessary ordinances.

 

[Fatmop]

God has provided a way for the deceased to hear the Gospel and receive the necessary ordinances.

That certainly seems fair. But what way is this?

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Presupposing that a person would only get to heaven through Christianity, and that there is only one heaven, I'd say even then that I don't know. I know some people see him differently, but, to me, Jesus is a god/ diety of infinite compassion. If he and the rest of the trinity didn't come up with a good plan to blend free will with the option of eternal bliss, I'd be rather startled.

 

[Linus]

Do you all think that this passage has somehting to do with this subject, or is it talking about something different?

2 Thessalonians 1: 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

 

[dan]

That certainly seems fair. But what way is this?

Christ preached to the dead so that they could be judged accordingly, and Paul speaks of baptisms for the dead. Those who didn't have the opportunity to accept Christ in mortality will have that opportunity in the spirit world. The necessary ordinances will be carried out here by people acting in proxy.

 

[dan]

Do you all think that this passage has somehting to do with this subject, or is it talking about something different?

2 Thessalonians 1: 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

I believe it is directed at those who refuse to know Him, not those who never have the opportunity.

 

[Fatmop]

Christ preached to the dead so that they could be judged accordingly, and Paul speaks of baptisms for the dead. Those who didn't have the opportunity to accept Christ in mortality will have that opportunity in the spirit world. The necessary ordinances will be carried out here by people acting in proxy.

Please point me to the particular verses in the Bible that allowed you to draw this conclusion.

 

[jewscout]

but even after death what if they're like, "you know the jesus thing is just not my bag."?

 

[Scott1]

Meesheltx,

We describe it this way:

(A)ll those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved..." (CCC #1281 cf. LG 16)

 

[Meesheltx]

In this after-death opportunity to know Jesus...wouldn't the people believe more because it was shown to them rather than on faith? ...that would throw free will out the window, wouldn't it? I have a feeling thats just one of those things we as humans just can't know...and we will find out the many mysteries of God when we die?

 

[Meesheltx]

thanks scott...thats a great answer :-D

 

[robtex]

..it seems kinda odd and unnecessary.
Discuss!

I love your play on words of equating the common phrase "ignorance is bliss" with the blissful existance of heaven. So clever! About the odd and unneccessary part what is even odder is that if God and or Jesus are able to reveal themselves to their children but chose only reveal themselves to a chosen few and than expect them to do the work of convincing the non-revealed of their existance with the stipulation that failure to convince = eternal damnation.

 

[michel]

I think an interesting example of your scenario is that of an abandoned baby, mothered and brought up by a pack of animals.....

To me, he or she would of course have just the same opportunity to be accepted by God - without ever having understood the concept of religion, nor of salvation.

 

[Meesheltx]

Hmm...
Wouldn't we have all been better off if we were all ignorant? Then people would REALLY have free will and make the decisions of whether or not to be good, caring, helping people.

...This could get a whole lot deeper but right now i'm headed to class...have fun with this one guys!

 

[Aqualung]

Please point me to the particular verses in the Bible that allowed you to draw this conclusion.

1 Pet. 3:18-19 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by te Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."
1 Pet. 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Hmm...
Wouldn't we have all been better off if we were all ignorant? Then people would REALLY have free will and make the decisions of whether or not to be good, caring, helping people.

...This could get a whole lot deeper but right now i'm headed to class...have fun with this one guys!

Nobody, in the end, will be ignorant. But I beleive God will hold into account how well we lived up to what we were given. Even if I have never heard of God or Jesus, I will still be able to follow him, by listening to the promptings of the holy Ghost. Nobody is ever truely ignorant. Just because I'm buddhist doesn't mean I don't for some reason know that murderning or lying or stealing is wrong. You're not ignorant.

 

[michel]

1 Pet. 3:18-19 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by te Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."
1 Pet. 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
Nobody, in the end, will be ignorant. But I beleive God will hold into account how well we lived up to what we were given. Even if I have never heard of God or Jesus, I will still be able to follow him, by listening to the promptings of the holy Ghost. Nobody is ever truely ignorant. Just because I'm buddhist doesn't mean I don't for some reason know that murderning or lying or stealing is wrong. You're not ignorant.

Are you intimating that all morality stems from religion? - or that atheists' moralities are given to them surrupticiously by the holy Ghost ?

 

[Aqualung]

In this after-death opportunity to know Jesus...wouldn't the people believe more because it was shown to them rather than on faith? ...that would throw free will out the window, wouldn't it? I have a feeling thats just one of those things we as humans just can't know...and we will find out the many mysteries of God when we die?

No, it wouldn't throw free will out the window. did it throw free will out of the window when he came before death to the jews? Obviously not, because such a huge number still rejected him, and even after seeing all his miracles, they still crucified him. People obviously don't beleive more just because something is shown to them more directly.

 

[Aqualung]

Are you intimating that all morality stems from religion?

No.

or that atheists' moralities are given to them surrupticiously by the holy Ghost ?

Everybody can feel the Holy Ghost. They may not know it is the holy ghost, and I really don't think it matters what they think it is, so long as they follow it.

 

[robtex]

Just because I'm buddhist doesn't mean I don't for some reason know that murderning or lying or stealing is wrong. You're not ignorant.

Therein lies the complication as presented by this thread. Understand that knowing or assessing that murdering lying and stealing is wrong is not the formula for eternal salvation in Christianty. Accepting Jesus as your savior is. What Meesheltx is postulating is that if God would accept those into heaven who were not afforded the opportunity to accept christ due to ignorance of his existance wouldn't it be better not to inform them and give them a better chance to view the pearly gates by the grace of God due to non-exposure to christianity than risk them not getting the message and getting barbqued for eternity?

Realize that millions of people will go through life never hearing of christianty for reasons such as

1) early deaths
2) countires politics
3) countries religion that is other than christianty and not apt to allow christanity in
4) mental retardating to a capacity that is substandard to learning an organized religion

If these people were to say, not be punished for the circumstances, and God was gracious to let those groups of ignorance into the eternal salvation of heaven than why run the risk of propogating christianity knowing non-acceptance due to things like

a) philosophical perspective
b) lack of personal revleation
c) contestment with current religious values
d) time frame too short for conversion before death

which would and could lead to eternal damnation despite the purity of the life that the indivdual led?