Isn't the exclusivity of Scientific Verification accepted on faith?

[Subduction Zone]

You are right dear, what you said was a challenge in fact used by my scripture to refute all allegations of its opponents. The challenges are not merely scientific proofed by up-to-date science, but included linguistic, rhetoric, historian, numerical and logical.


It is the first book to describe the development of the fetus precisely as was described lately by modern medicine

Nope, that is merely reinterpreting vague passages after the fact.

It is the first book to describe the earth as sphere

Nope, the spherical nature of the Earth was known long before the Koran was written.

it is the first book hinting the big Bang theory

Not even close. Once again you are reinterpreting vague passages after the fact and since the same can be done with the Bible you lose twice on this one.

It is the first book to describe the expansion of the space

Nope, see above.

It is the first book to talk about a barrier between seas and rivers so bitter water and fresh water cannot mix together

Yes, and that is laughably wrong.

It is the first book to talk about the Sun as light source and about the moon as a reflector

Does it? You need to quote and link a translation for this one. Odds are that you are merely once again reinterpreting after the fact.

Myriads more are there if you read a copy of translated Quran. All this was revealed more than 15 centuries back, when it was dark all around and everywhere was terra incognita. Do you think a human or a Jinn was able to dictate all that facts? (How do you judge?) this is a part from a verse in Quran asking all opponents!

Yes, we all know that Muslims are past masters at reinterpreting their holy book. It actually shows a bit of disrespect for the original. But since the original is clearly wrong I can see why they feel that they have to do that.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Isn't the exclusivity of Scientific Verification accepted on faith?

Firstly, there is nothing to replace science as the means to obtain knowledge such that this reflects reality (as in the sense - that which makes up the immediate environment in which we live), and secondly, it is inevitable that all accept what science mostly tells us, since it just can be verified - if one cares to do the necessary research. Faith then is just a misuse of the word to make it appear that it has any comparative meaning as it has with regards religions - which essentially are just theories anyway.

 

[Baroodi]

Nope, that is merely reinterpreting vague passages after the fact.



Nope, the spherical nature of the Earth was known long before the Koran was written.



Not even close. Once again you are reinterpreting vague passages after the fact and since the same can be done with the Bible you lose twice on this one.



Nope, see above.



Yes, and that is laughably wrong.



Does it? You need to quote and link a translation for this one. Odds are that you are merely once again. reinterpreting after the fact.



Yes, we all know that Muslims are past masters at reinterpreting their holy book. It actually shows a bit of disrespect for the original. But since the original is clearly wrong I can see why they feel that they have to do that.

evidence based answers are valueless, you need to present the source of your alleged facts. Something like; this is known before Quran has no weight without documenting evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

evidence based answers are valueless, you need to present the source of your alleged facts. Something like; this is known before Quran has no weight without documenting evidence.

You have that backwards, answers with no supporting evidence are valueless. I could make all sorts of false claims about you, but without evidence by claims would be worthless. And you were the one that went on a Gish Gallop. When you post all sorts of ignorant nonsense without evidence all it takes to refute it is the same kind of post.

Tell me what you specifically want to know about and I will gladly support my claims. I know that you cannot support yours so I will not even ask.

 

[Baroodi]

You have that backwards, answers with no supporting evidence are valueless. I could make all sorts of false claims about you, but without evidence by claims would be worthless. And you were the one that went on a Gish Gallop. When you post all sorts of ignorant nonsense without evidence all it takes to refute it is the same kind of post.

Tell me what you specifically want to know about and I will gladly support my claims. I know that you cannot support yours so I will not even ask.

sorry the supporting evidence should come from your side, not from mine, I only have the Quranic verses. I put some points and said Quran is the first book to mention these 15 centuries back. You said: No mankind know these long before Quran: So show me this with your evidence and I will withdraw then, shyly my words. Thanks so much

 

[Subduction Zone]

sorry the supporting evidence should come from your side, not from mine, I only have the Quranic verses. I put some points and said Quran is the first book to mention these 15 centuries back. You said: No mankind know these long before Quran: So show me this with your evidence and I will withdraw then, shyly my words. Thanks so much

So you admit that you have nothing except for your reinterpretation of the Quran. Pointing out your unsupported errors refutes the nonsense that you posted. That is all that it takes. You hand waved in a bogus argument and it can be dismissed with a hand wave. Meanwhile it appears that you know that you are wrong since you will not ask for specifics to my claims, even though I told you I would give them if asked.

You made it too easy. Next!

 

[Milton Platt]

Based on another thread...

Follow along with me here, while I present the opening statements for this discussion.

First off the point of this thread for my part is not to call science and the empirical method into doubt, but to hopefully illustrate a point.

A good number of materialists and skeptics often point to science as a verification method for information in an exclusive way. Claiming that science alone constitutes valid evidence or proofs to establish a premise.

My question is: isn't this a belief?

What exactly gives the impression that science alone should be accepted as valid for verifying information? What argues for that?

On what authority should this be accepted?

Note: I am not trying to throw science out the window here. I am trying to determine why the premise of science alone as evidence should be accepted.

If this authority for science alone as evidence is science itself- isn't this coming near the kind of circular argumentation fundamentalists are often accused of with their scriptures?

Science is a sole authority because science establishes it and shows it?

It has often struck me as odd that this isn't called into question more. This premise of science alone as valid for evidence.

Sure science carries evidence. That is not what I am debating, for my part. I am asking why we should accept that science exclusively verifies information? Science exclusively?

couldn't figure out quite what you were getting at maybe, but.......in science, the evidence is the authority.

 

[Milton Platt]

sorry the supporting evidence should come from your side, not from mine, I only have the Quranic verses. I put some points and said Quran is the first book to mention these 15 centuries back. You said: No mankind know these long before Quran: So show me this with your evidence and I will withdraw then, shyly my words. Thanks so much

There is no reason to accept the Quoran as an authority on anything.

 

[Baroodi]

There is no reason to accept the Quoran as an authority on anything.

Quran only authorizes those who believe in it and those who make it their pacemaker in this life.

(Say; O nonbelievers, I don't worship what you are worshiping. And you don't worship, what I am worshiping)


(You have your creed and I have mine)


(Say, The truth is from your Lord" Whoever like to believe, he should believe. And whoever like to disbelieve, he should disbelieve)


(No coercion in religion, whoever like he can believe. And whoever like, he can disbelieve)


The above are translated excerpts from Noble Quran. Everyone should follow what he believe in. freedom of religion was stated by Quran 15 centuries ago

(We have shown him the two Paths) (Quran)


The evil way and the divine path, the human has to decide where to go

 

[Audie]

Quran only authorizes those who believe in it and those who make it their pacemaker in this life.

(Say; O nonbelievers, I don't worship what you are worshiping. And you don't worship, what I am worshiping)


(You have your creed and I have mine)


(Say, The truth is from your Lord" Whoever like to believe, he should believe. And whoever like to disbelieve, he should disbelieve)


(No coercion in religion, whoever like he can believe. And whoever like, he can disbelieve)


The above are translated excerpts from Noble Quran. Everyone should follow what he believe in. freedom of religion was stated by Quran 15 centuries ago

(We have shown him the two Paths) (Quran)


The evil way and the divine path, the human has to decide where to go

Straight into t he trade center, "quran" in hand,
calling on "allah".

 

[Milton Platt]

Quran only authorizes those who believe in it and those who make it their pacemaker in this life.

(Say; O nonbelievers, I don't worship what you are worshiping. And you don't worship, what I am worshiping)


(You have your creed and I have mine)


(Say, The truth is from your Lord" Whoever like to believe, he should believe. And whoever like to disbelieve, he should disbelieve)


(No coercion in religion, whoever like he can believe. And whoever like, he can disbelieve)


The above are translated excerpts from Noble Quran. Everyone should follow what he believe in. freedom of religion was stated by Quran 15 centuries ago

(We have shown him the two Paths) (Quran)


The evil way and the divine path, the human has to decide where to go

Obviously that is not the way a large number of Islamists interpret the book. People are killed daily for not believing, or for believing a different version of Islam. Even if they are wrong, it still demonstrates that the book is open to individual interpretation and therefore unreliable as a source of truth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Quran only authorizes those who believe in it and those who make it their pacemaker in this life.

(Say; O nonbelievers, I don't worship what you are worshiping. And you don't worship, what I am worshiping)


(You have your creed and I have mine)


(Say, The truth is from your Lord" Whoever like to believe, he should believe. And whoever like to disbelieve, he should disbelieve)


(No coercion in religion, whoever like he can believe. And whoever like, he can disbelieve)


The above are translated excerpts from Noble Quran. Everyone should follow what he believe in. freedom of religion was stated by Quran 15 centuries ago

(We have shown him the two Paths) (Quran)


The evil way and the divine path, the human has to decide where to go

That is only special pleading and a claim on your part that Allah is evil.

Why do you believe in an evil god?

 

[Baroodi]

So you admit that you have nothing except for your reinterpretation of the Quran. Pointing out your unsupported errors refutes the nonsense that you posted. That is all that it takes. You hand waved in a bogus argument and it can be dismissed with a hand wave. Meanwhile it appears that you know that you are wrong since you will not ask for specifics to my claims, even though I told you I would give them if asked.

You made it too easy. Next!

My argument only become bogus when you bring forward your alleged documents that, the points I mentioned about Quran were not scoop, and humans know about it long before Quran. If you want to kill an elephant, don't shoot its shadow

 

[Subduction Zone]

My argument only become bogus when you bring forward your alleged documents that, the points I mentioned about Quran were not scoop, and humans know about it long before Quran. If you want to kill an elephant, don't shoot its shadow

Wrong again, you made the bogus claims first. They were challenged since you did not support them. You know what you posted was nonsense and you are now simply trying to shift the burden of proof.

But I feel generous. You mistakenly tried to claim that the Koran was first with the spherical Earth claim. It was not even close. The Greeks thought that the Earth was spherical as early as the 6th century BCE and proved it in the third century BCE:

Spherical Earth - Wikipedia

The Koran was more than 1,000 years after when the Greeks first made that claim and of course the writer of the Koran never supported his claim. The Greeks have them beaten in every way possible in that matter.

 

[Baroodi]

Obviously that is not the way a large number of Islamists interpret the book. People are killed daily for not believing, or for believing a different version of Islam. Even if they are wrong, it still demonstrates that the book is open to individual interpretation and therefore unreliable as a source of truth.

You are right dear Milton; But don't judge a nation with the worst men in it. Yes some influential distort the facts out of crookedness and whims. Quran texts are very clear. Yes there are many hypocrites and disobedient. Quran says, No Alcohol but some Muslims drink it, Quran says: don't kill an innocent soul but someone like Syrian president kills many every day, don't steal and some Muslims are thieves. This happens all over the world and in all sects and religions for various reasons, so is it right to blame the cults and these religions from which these crooked criminals emerged before their deviation?

(whoever kills an innocent soul unlawfully, it is as if he killed all mankind) (Noble Quran)


(And don't transgress, verily God doesn't like transgressors) (Noble Quran)



(If they resorted to peace, then you should resort to it) (Noble Quran)


Unfortunately, the wars in Islamic territories are all plotted. The havoc in Iraq, happened after American invasion on a very weak plea that, Saddam is having nuclear weapons. If the American really know Saddam have such weapons, they will not march for one step towards him. If they can, why they are keeping away from the North Korea then

 

[Baroodi]

Straight into t he trade center, "quran" in hand,
calling on "allah".

(whoever kills an innocent soul unlawfully, it is as if he killed all mankind) (Noble Quran)


(And don't transgress, verily God doesn't like transgressors) (Noble Quran)

please don't take in the fabricated propaganda against the most peaceful religion Islam before sieving it well. Islam in Arabic means submission to god and peace

 

[Milton Platt]

You are right dear Milton; But don't judge a nation with the worst men in it. Yes some influential distort the facts out of crookedness and whims. Quran texts are very clear. Yes there are many hypocrites and disobedient. Quran says, No Alcohol but some Muslims drink it, Quran says: don't kill an innocent soul but someone like Syrian president kills many every day, don't steal and some Muslims are thieves. This happens all over the world and in all sects and religions for various reasons, so is it right to blame the cults and these religions from which these crooked criminals emerged before their deviation?

(whoever kills an innocent soul unlawfully, it is as if he killed all mankind) (Noble Quran)


(And don't transgress, verily God doesn't like transgressors) (Noble Quran)



(If they resorted to peace, then you should resort to it) (Noble Quran)


Unfortunately, the wars in Islamic territories are all plotted. The havoc in Iraq, happened after American invasion on a very weak plea that, Saddam is having nuclear weapons. If the American really know Saddam have such weapons, they will not march for one step towards him. If they can, why they are keeping away from the North Korea then

Before you can use the Quran as any kind of authority, you have a lot of work ahead of you. You must first provide convincing empirical evidence that any god exists, much less your version of god. Next, you must be able to demonstrate with convincing evidence that your god is responsible in any way for what is written in the Quran.

 

[Milton Platt]

(whoever kills an innocent soul unlawfully, it is as if he killed all mankind) (Noble Quran)


(And don't transgress, verily God doesn't like transgressors) (Noble Quran)

please don't take in the fabricated propaganda against the most peaceful religion Islam before sieving it well. Islam in Arabic means submission to god and peace

Your definition of peace is different from mine. Your religion is obviously not peaceful except maybe to those who believe in it. To all others, your religion encourages mass murders, torturing, beheading, treating women like property and warring.

 

[Milton Platt]

You are right dear Milton; But don't judge a nation with the worst men in it. Yes some influential distort the facts out of crookedness and whims. Quran texts are very clear. Yes there are many hypocrites and disobedient. Quran says, No Alcohol but some Muslims drink it, Quran says: don't kill an innocent soul but someone like Syrian president kills many every day, don't steal and some Muslims are thieves. This happens all over the world and in all sects and religions for various reasons, so is it right to blame the cults and these religions from which these crooked criminals emerged before their deviation?

(whoever kills an innocent soul unlawfully, it is as if he killed all mankind) (Noble Quran)


(And don't transgress, verily God doesn't like transgressors) (Noble Quran)



(If they resorted to peace, then you should resort to it) (Noble Quran)


Unfortunately, the wars in Islamic territories are all plotted. The havoc in Iraq, happened after American invasion on a very weak plea that, Saddam is having nuclear weapons. If the American really know Saddam have such weapons, they will not march for one step towards him. If they can, why they are keeping away from the North Korea then

And yet there are other passages in the Quran that do make the killing of non-believers okay. You are either cherry-picking passages, or not being truthful. I know not all followers of Islam do these things, but at least 20% believe these things are okay. Polls show this to be true. And they point to specific passages in your Quran to support their beliefs.

 

[Milton Platt]

You are right dear Milton; But don't judge a nation with the worst men in it. Yes some influential distort the facts out of crookedness and whims. Quran texts are very clear. Yes there are many hypocrites and disobedient. Quran says, No Alcohol but some Muslims drink it, Quran says: don't kill an innocent soul but someone like Syrian president kills many every day, don't steal and some Muslims are thieves. This happens all over the world and in all sects and religions for various reasons, so is it right to blame the cults and these religions from which these crooked criminals emerged before their deviation?

(whoever kills an innocent soul unlawfully, it is as if he killed all mankind) (Noble Quran)


(And don't transgress, verily God doesn't like transgressors) (Noble Quran)



(If they resorted to peace, then you should resort to it) (Noble Quran)


Unfortunately, the wars in Islamic territories are all plotted. The havoc in Iraq, happened after American invasion on a very weak plea that, Saddam is having nuclear weapons. If the American really know Saddam have such weapons, they will not march for one step towards him. If they can, why they are keeping away from the North Korea then

I disagreed with the invasion of Iraq. Most Americans did, I think. How does that justify Muslims blowing up other Muslims in a market or Mosque? How does that justify Isis invading at least two countries? How does that justify driving a vehicle down a path and killing civilian pedestrians? How does that justify killing a cartoonist for drawing a picture representing Muhammad? How does that justify flying two airplanes into skyscrapers and killing thousands?
What measures have Islamists taken to prevent this from happening?