Israel and the Jewish Messiah

[Jayhawker Soule]

So ...

Baptism is to Judaism as Pedophilia is to Christianity​

Seriously? You're better than this.

 

[dantech]

So ...

Baptism is to Judaism as Pedophilia is to Christianity​

Seriously? You're better than this.

You're right. I see what I did. Let me try again.

Nah, this doesn't address my question. Nevermind.

Disciple, I'm sorry for having compared John's Baptism to pedophilia in a way.
Let me ask you this...

You are inferring that baptism is a part of Judaism because a Jew has gotten baptized.

I have no doubt that there is a Christian somewhere, sometime, that has sacrificed an animal, even after Jesus offered himself as the final sacrifice. Does that mean that animal sacrifice is an aspect of Christianity?

 

[Desert Snake]

I have no doubt that there is a Christian somewhere, sometime, that has sacrificed an animal, even after Jesus offered himself as the final sacrifice. Does that mean that animal sacrifice is an aspect of Christianity?

Sheesh. You think that is a good analogy? Clearly we're on a different page here when it comes to interpreting Scripture.

Anyways, considering I don't even think baptism is necessary, I think we can just leave the conversation at where it is.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Would someone tell me what this thread purports to be about?

 

[Desert Snake]

Would someone tell me what this thread purports to be about?

Ramifications of the difference between the Christian messiah, Yeshua, and the 'Jewish Messiah', of Judaism.

 

[Levite]

Do you consider Jews who don't follow the dietary laws, get tattoos, work on the Sabbath etc. as practicing Judaism?

They may be practicing incompletely or incorrectly, but yes, absolutely. There is a major difference between incomplete or incorrect practice of Judaism and syncretism or practice of another religion alongside or in place of Judaism.

 

[Desert Snake]

They may be practicing incompletely or incorrectly, but yes, absolutely. There is a major difference between incomplete or incorrect practice of Judaism and syncretism or practice of another religion alongside or in place of Judaism.

Yeah...aren't we getting into some semantics here? It depends on what we are referring to "syncretism" imo. For instance, the tattoos mentioned in the OT were "magical type", basically, right? What are modern day equivalent of such tattoos?

Isn't that "syncretism" if they fit that category?
So, where does 'syncretism' merge with 'incorrect practice.
I'm not even saying I disagree with you, but I don't think these different practices are always so clear.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey buddy, very observant. I assume you've noticed some theological discrepancies in my comments.
I tend to lean in that direction on some major points, yes, but if we consider "mainstream Judaism", I differ in opinion.
such as...
1. I value the NT. It's great! How much wisdom is there, I din't think anyone reading it honestly can deny that.
2. I think the usual form of Christian worship is usually tomato/tomahto to Judaism. This isn't some wild belief, but I know that some, (many?) Jews disagree with this.
3. I don't believe circumcision is necessary. This is a biggie traditionally, but even many Jews share this belief.
4. I value the Tanakh equally, in entirety, as Christianity does. May not be a big deal, but for certain arguments, makes a difference.
Points where I disagree with Christianity are, the necessity of Baptism. One could say, 'well duh' if you lean towards Judaism, but it isn't that simple, as Judaism has it's own form of Baptism.

I respect your opinions although I respectfully might differ in some of them!

And thank you for putting it in such an decent way that only reflects your good manners and nature. Some people should learn from you!

 

[Flankerl]

Yeah, it's a historical aspect of Judaism.

Your argumentation is basically 'my religion is better than your religion' Ping-Pong.

If you think the man didn't exist, then we're left questioning whether any Biblical people existed, great.

Again: Just because Judaism had a time where everyone and their grandma believed to be the moshiach doesnt mean its part of the Religion called Judaism when they started their own cute cults who mostly died out.

And yeah I dont believe in the stuff written in the Christian Holy Book because you know... iam a Jew. Is that really a big surprise?


And no i never wrote that Judaism is better than the Greco-Roman Religion.

 

[Levite]

Yeah...aren't we getting into some semantics here? It depends on what we are referring to "syncretism" imo. For instance, the tattoos mentioned in the OT were "magical type", basically, right? What are modern day equivalent of such tattoos?

Isn't that "syncretism" if they fit that category?
So, where does 'syncretism' merge with 'incorrect practice.
I'm not even saying I disagree with you, but I don't think these different practices are always so clear.

Syncretism of the kind I mean is the unfiltered and unadapted adoption of practices or theology from one religion into another.

So, for example, the Kabbalists syncretized concepts from neo-Platonism, Babylonian mysticism, and other non-Jewish sources, but they refined, filtered, adapted, and reshaped what they took extensively, so that it became compatible with Jewish tradition. But so-called "Messianic Jews" or Jews for Jesus (when those are Jewish at all) are simply taking Christianity and trying to tack it onto Judaism, or the reverse, with little in the way of real and effective reshaping or adaptation.

As for tattoos, the Rabbis of the Talmud actually clarify that what is forbidden is specifically the Name of God (either the tetragrammaton or any of the sacred names which, if written on paper, may not be erased) or the names or symbology of other gods and religions.

In practice, Jews have tended to avoid getting tattoos in general, but technically, it is only those associated with avodah zarah (prohibited religious practices) or with the holy names of God that are actually forbidden outright. Nothing directly to do with magic.

 

[Desert Snake]

And yeah I dont believe in the stuff written in the Christian Holy Book because you know... iam a Jew. Is that really a big surprise?

Riiight..........except that we're in discussion and debate forums...If you have nothing to debate pertaining to the OP, why comment at all.

 

[Desert Snake]

And yeah I dont believe in the stuff written in the Christian Holy Book because you know... iam a Jew. Is that really a big surprise?

Right. So Jewish commentary on the NT doesn't exist. Sure.

It's not a "surprise", but that's just your own perspective.

 

[Desert Snake]

Syncretism of the kind I mean is the unfiltered and unadapted adoption of practices or theology from one religion into another.

So, for example, the Kabbalists syncretized concepts from neo-Platonism, Babylonian mysticism, and other non-Jewish sources, but they refined, filtered, adapted, and reshaped what they took extensively, so that it became compatible with Jewish tradition. But so-called "Messianic Jews" or Jews for Jesus (when those are Jewish at all) are simply taking Christianity and trying to tack it onto Judaism, or the reverse, with little in the way of real and effective reshaping or adaptation.

As for tattoos, the Rabbis of the Talmud actually clarify that what is forbidden is specifically the Name of God (either the tetragrammaton or any of the sacred names which, if written on paper, may not be erased) or the names or symbology of other gods and religions.

In practice, Jews have tended to avoid getting tattoos in general, but technically, it is only those associated with avodah zarah (prohibited religious practices) or with the holy names of God that are actually forbidden outright. Nothing directly to do with magic.

O.k. still semantics of course. I realize that you're referencing Talmud, but that doesn't cover everything.
Anyways, we're off topic, so these issues can be discussed elsewhere.

 

[Flankerl]

Riiight..........except that we're in discussion and debate forums...If you have nothing to debate pertaining to the OP, why comment at all.

You have been given various answers to your OP which you answered with vague postings after which other Users tried to find out what kind of answer you are looking for which you again answered with vague postings.

So yeah.

Right. So Jewish commentary on the NT doesn't exist. Sure.

It's not a "surprise", but that's just your own perspective.

Of course there is Jewish commentary on the Christian Holy Book. But that doesnt make the Christian Holy Book part of Judaism or something which Jews believe in.

 

[Levite]

O.k. still semantics of course. I realize that you're referencing Talmud, but that doesn't cover everything.

I guess I don't see how that was semantics....

As for Talmud, it doesn't cover "everything," since by definition it is a finite work. But the Oral Torah, of which Talmud is a part, is more than a set of works, it's a set of processes, methods, and teachings, through which we interpret Torah, find philosophical and theological meanings, determine the range of permissible and impermissible actions within Jewish life, and more. There is not an aspect of interpretation or Jewish Thought and practice which either is not covered or could not be covered within the auspices of Oral Torah in its broadest sense.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You have been given various answers to your OP which you answered with vague postings after which other Users tried to find out what kind of answer you are looking for which you again answered with vague postings.

He purposely posted in the Abrahamic Religions DIR rather than the Judaism DIRs. What say we let the other guys entertain him.

 

[Desert Snake]

You have been given various answers to your OP which you answered with vague postings after which other Users tried to find out what kind of answer you are looking for

Lol. I'm not 'looking for' a specific type of answer.

 

[Desert Snake]

He purposely posted in the Abrahamic Religions DIR rather than the Judaism DIRs.

Yep. Though it seems they don't want to comment. That's...o.k.

 

[Desert Snake]

I guess I don't see how that was semantics....

As for Talmud, it doesn't cover "everything," since by definition it is a finite work. But the Oral Torah, of which Talmud is a part, is more than a set of works, it's a set of processes, methods, and teachings, through which we interpret Torah, find philosophical and theological meanings, determine the range of permissible and impermissible actions within Jewish life, and more. There is not an aspect of interpretation or Jewish Thought and practice which either is not covered or could not be covered within the auspices of Oral Torah in its broadest sense.

I know that, but you have already stated your opinion on other groups, if you don't think other opinions are valid, that narrows the parameters of the discussion.
That's fine, but it is also just your opinion, we can't really say "Judaism believes"...in that context, only "these groups believe"...

 

[Desert Snake]

I respect your opinions although I respectfully might differ in some of them!

Sure, likewise.

And thank you for putting it in such an decent way that only reflects your good manners and nature. Some people should learn from you!

Thanks!