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Israel and the Jewish Messiah

roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
2ndpillar said:
Dear roger,
Your point of death and resurrection only applies to "Christianity", which is simply the Roman Church and her daughters, founded on Paul and his false gospel of Grace, and Petros, and his role as the petros (small rock) the church is built on, versus petra, on which the true church is built on. Yeshua's only reference to a cross was the cross individual's bear in their life. His message was the kingdom of God, and not some false "covenant with death" based on "deception" and a "refuge of lies" Isaiah 28:15-18, "which will not stand". (Mt 7:26-27)
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Please quote your source?
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
roger1440 said:
Nearly all the gospels, canonical and non-canonical mention the death and resurrection of Jesus. ALL of Christianity rests on these two events. The problem in defining Christianity comes from what do these events mean. When attempting to define Christianity a person starts from one of two roots. One root leads to a metaphoric interpretation. The other root leads to a literal interpretation. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus there is no Christianity.
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No, I disagree. Furthermore, I can't figure out what your position is on all of this.
 
Sariel

Sariel

Heretic
I think this thread got derailed from the original point.
@disciple: are you referring to the Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David theory?
 
Sariel

Sariel

Heretic
disciple said:
No...I had assumed that Yeshua was from the line Of Joseph, if that's what you mean.
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I wasn't sure if were you referring to the Two-Messiah theory? As in the Talmudic theory about there being the 2 messiahs. The first being the Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant that is killed. Whom is later avenged by the Messiah ben David, the victorious messiah who ushers in the millennial kingdom. I ask since I know that another member had a similar belief.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Sraosha said:
I wasn't sure if were you referring to the Two-Messiah theory? As in the Talmudic theory about there being the 2 messiahs. The first being the Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant that is killed. Whom is later avenged by the Messiah ben David, the victorious messiah who ushers in the millennial kingdom. I ask since I know that another member had a similar belief.
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Oh, I see...I thought it was the same Messiah, the "second Coming", but what you are referring to is EXACTLY the type of issue I was looking for.
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
Sraosha said:
I wasn't sure if were you referring to the Two-Messiah theory? As in the Talmudic theory about there being the 2 messiahs. The first being the Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant that is killed. Whom is later avenged by the Messiah ben David, the victorious messiah who ushers in the millennial kingdom. I ask since I know that another member had a similar belief.
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Where can I find some good material on this "Two-Messiah theory"? Did it exist during the first century?
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Sraosha said:
I wasn't sure if were you referring to the Two-Messiah theory? As in the Talmudic theory about there being the 2 messiahs. The first being the Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant that is killed. Whom is later avenged by the Messiah ben David, the victorious messiah who ushers in the millennial kingdom. I ask since I know that another member had a similar belief.
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I have to say, personally, I don't place as much if any importance on the crucifixion episode, it never seemed entirely sensical or relevant to me. I think it might even be an added feature to the narrative.
 
Sariel

Sariel

Heretic
roger1440 said:
Where can I find some good material on this "Two-Messiah theory"? Did it exist during the first century?
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Check some of the wikipedia sources. I don't know how old the idea actually dates back. Just look up Messiah ben Joseph on Wikipedia. (I can't post links yet)

disciple said:
I have to say, personally, I don't place as much if any importance on the crucifixion episode, it never seemed entirely sensical or relevant to me. I think it might even be an added feature to the narrative.
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I think he was accused by the Temple higher ups and killed by the Romans via crucifixion but I also have a feeling some parts of the narratives may be redaction such as the Last Supper speech and Pontius Pilate being portrayed so sympathetically.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Sraosha said:
I think he was accused by the Temple higher ups and killed by the Romans via crucifixion but I also have a feeling some parts of the narratives may be redaction such as the Last Supper speech and Pontius Pilate being portrayed so sympathetically.
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hm interesting. I personally would consider Yeshu the "Messiah", regardless of contextual meaning. The 'next' messiah would be in some sense a second Coming, whether a different appearance of separation or not.
The fact that Josephus refers to Yeshu as the Messiah means to me, even in a passive usage of the title, Jesus was.
 
Sariel

Sariel

Heretic
disciple said:
hm interesting. I personally would consider Yeshu the "Messiah", regardless of contextual meaning. The 'next' messiah would be in some sense a second Coming, whether a different appearance of separation or not.
The fact that Josephus refers to Yeshu as the Messiah means to me, even in a passive usage of the title, Jesus was.
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I've heard Josephus's reference to Yeshua was an interpolation. Regardless, my stance is somewhat similar to yours. In his first appearance, he fulfills the role of Messiah ben Joseph; the suffering servant. ben David may be the second coming of Yeshua, this time fulfilling the role of the lion of Judah against evil.. Or it could be a separate person with the same "spirit" of the messiah. Frankly, I don't know how the messianic kingdom will be ushered, or what the "second coming" truly means. Is Yeshua literally coming out of the sky with an army of angels? appearing as a man again? We can only speculate.
 
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