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Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Insightful commentary on the misguided calls for a ceasefire, Netanyahu's failures, and what may come next in the war if the PA obtains control in Gaza: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/24/israel-gaza-peace-strategy-political-offensive/
A ceasefire by Israel could be very productive if
used as an unexpected olive branch, followed up
with beginning talks about justice for Palestinians.
It would necessarily mean talking to people they
don't want to talk to, ie, Hamas.

Being committed to doing the same thing over
& over clearly isn't working for anyone. Trying
this new approach is low risk with high potential.
Of course, this would mean a sea change in how
Israel views Palestinians, eg, ending the policy of
keeping Palestinians on the brink of financial ruin.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
A ceasefire by Israel could be very productive if
used as an unexpected olive branch, followed up
with beginning talks about justice for Palestinians.
It would necessarily mean talking to people they
don't want to talk to, ie, Hamas.

Israel has talked quite a bit with Hamas. Long before this latest round of war started. A ceasefire would be interpreted (and messaged by Hamas) as their victory and Israel's defeat.


Being committed to doing the same thing over
& over clearly isn't working for anyone. Trying
this new approach is low risk with high potential.

The IDF's current goals are new and remove the risk of Islamist terrorists remaining in power.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Israel has talked quite a bit with Hamas.
Talking would require substance to back it up.
Israel has never backed off on oppression, eg,
group punishment, financial deprivation.
Real change is necessary to prevent the rise
of another Hamas.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Israel has talked quite a bit with Hamas. Long before this latest round of war started. A ceasefire would be interpreted (and messaged by Hamas) as their victory and Israel's defeat.
Of course...... HAMAS are within Israel. A homegrown gang of dissent.
The IDF's current goals are new and remove the risk of Islamist terrorists remaining in power.
The is how the existing gang developed, the children grow up fatherless.

About 3 generations of widows and orphans is the make up of GAZA. With a median age of 18 yrs old and 38% under the age of 14.

Do you know what IDF stands for............ignorant dumb F.....s........
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Talking would require substance to back it up.
Israel has never backed off on oppression, eg,
group punishment, financial deprivation.

What does this mean? What should Israel have done that it didn't do? How do you negotiate with people who want to wipe you off the planet and take every opportunity to fire missiles at you? What is owed to another country who acts like that?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What does this mean?
Group punishment is exemplified by punishing an
entire family for alleged crimes of one member, eg,
demolishing their home. This is illegal. This is terrorism.
This generates more hostility, & actually serves as a
recruiting tool for Hamas.
What should Israel have done that it didn't do?
End torture, group punishment, home demolition.
How do you negotiate with people who want to wipe you off the planet and take every opportunity to fire missiles at you?
That's a dysfunctional claim for several reasons.
- If one has enemies, these enemies are the ones to negotiate with.
- Many don't want to eliminate Israel. Treating them viciously
for a false reason only foments lasting hostility. It turns them
into the enemy.
-
What is owed to another country who acts like that?
Justice & peace.

Your perspective is one I observe in fervent Israel apologists.
They demonize the other side, seeing Palestinians only as
an implacable enemy....lives of lesser or no value.
They want vengeance & total destruction of the enemy.
The singular solution is continual oppression & cycle of wars.

Instead, let go of favoring one side. Set history aside.
Don't view one side as moral & entitled, with the other
as immoral & undeserving. View them all as just people
who could all be better off.
Consider a singular goal of both Palestinians & Israelis
living in their own secure countries, with peace &
prosperity.
How is that goal solved?
Fundamentally, there can't be one powerful state keeping
another population down. Israel is the 500# gorilla in this
conflict, & must change its view of Palestinians, who deserve
human rights, justice, peace, & prosperity. If they achieve
this, it would curb radicalization& joining violent resistance
groups.

In short....
Think in terms of solutions that can benefit all.
Not blame.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
How do you live side by side with an individual that hates you? In the Hamas charter, in article 7: "the day of judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them all. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and the trees say, 'Oh Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him'. Only the "Gharkad" tree, will not because it is one of the trees of the Jews"
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
How do you live side by side with an individual that hates you? In the Hamas charter, in article 7: "the day of judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them all. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and the trees say, 'Oh Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him'. Only the "Gharkad" tree, will not because it is one of the trees of the Jews"
That's Hamas. Palestinians are not all Hamas.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Group punishment is exemplified by punishing an
entire family for alleged crimes of one member, eg,
demolishing their home. This is illegal. This is terrorism.
This generates more hostility, & actually serves as a
recruiting tool for Hamas.

Which homes are we talking about? Can civilian structures ever be destroyed in the course of war?

End torture,

On that we agree, torture is never acceptable.

group punishment,

What does this mean?

home demolition.

Same question as above.

That's a dysfunctional claim for several reasons.
- If one has enemies, these enemies are the ones to negotiate with.

Not always. Some enemies cannot be negotiated with. Some enemies are simply fanatics and need to be eliminated. This is particularly true of literal jihadist terrorists who believe God will reward them in heaven for murdering innocent people.

- Many don't want to eliminate Israel.

If we're talking about Hamas, yes, they really do. It is literally in their charter.

Justice & peace.

Nebulous terms that require operational definitions and plans of action.

Your perspective is one I observe in fervent Israel apologists.
They demonize the other side, seeing Palestinians only as
an implacable enemy....lives of lesser or no value.

Simply false. Palestinians =/= Hamas. Palestinian civilians are victims here. Caught in the crossfire between their hideous ISIS-esque leaders and Israel. Your need to equate my disagreement with your cloudy and misguided policy ideas with my lack of concern for Palestinian lives is telling.

They want vengeance & total destruction of the enemy.
The singular solution is continual oppression & cycle of wars.

Wrong again.

Instead, let go of favoring one side. Set history aside.

Yikes. Read that back to yourself.

Don't view one side as moral & entitled, with the other
as immoral & undeserving. View them all as just people
who could all be better off.
Consider a singular goal of both Palestinians & Israelis
living in their own secure countries, with peace &
prosperity.

That goal has been repeatedly considered, and offered. I'll let you take a wild guess which side declined that vision of the world.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Which homes are we talking about? Can civilian structures ever be destroyed in the course of war?
I'd previously not offered link because this has long been news.
On that we agree, torture is never acceptable.
Yet USA government tacitly condones it.
What does this mean?
Same question as above.
See the link above.

Not always. Some enemies cannot be negotiated with.
By "not always" & "Some enemies" are you saying
this applies to Hamas, Palestinians, & other groups
in this conflict?

Some enemies are simply fanatics and need to be eliminated. This is particularly true of literal jihadist terrorists who believe God will reward them in heaven for murdering innocent people.
Such a belief is why Israel has been at war its
entire existence.
Belief that another cannot be reasoned with
makes the believer impossible to reason with.
If we're talking about Hamas, yes, they really do. It is literally in their charter.
Consider encouraging them to change their charter.
And Israel must allow the Palestinians to have their
own country too....not just an open air prison with
Israeli guards.
Nebulous terms that require operational definitions and plans of action.
Peace & justice don't strike me as nebulous.
I know'm when I see'm, & Israel doesn't offer'm to Palestinians.
Hence the violent resistance.
Simply false. Palestinians =/= Hamas. Palestinian civilians are victims here. Caught in the crossfire between their hideous ISIS-esque leaders and Israel. Your need to equate my disagreement with your cloudy and misguided policy ideas with my lack of concern for Palestinian lives is telling.
Don't get all riled up & dissy.
You misunderstand my post.
Yes, Palestinians are victims, & Hamas is making it worse for
them. But Hamas exists only because Israel sets the stage for
this conflict by oppressing the Palestinians. Israel has the singular
power & responsibility to change this.
Wrong again.
History bears out my claim, ie, the cycle
of conflict & war correlating with oppression
of Palestinians throughout Israel's history
Yikes. Read that back to yourself.
If you can't think outside of your box,
you'll be trapped in it, & forever pursuing
vengeance against groups that fight
Israel's oppression of Palestinians.
That goal has been repeatedly considered, and offered. I'll let you take a wild guess which side declined that vision of the world.
Not with real change of a kind to allow
Palestinians peace, autonomy, & prosperity.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
What does this mean? What should Israel have done that it didn't do? How do you negotiate with people who want to wipe you off the planet and take every opportunity to fire missiles at you? What is owed to another country who acts like that?
What other country is owed?

No country or people likes to observe half a century of oppression.

Israel should reduce the extremist and settlers attacking the locals. Fighting palestinians is not going to make it OK to take Jerusalem or build a temple on that mount. The argument is not with the palestinians on those issues, it's the vote of the UN that made jerusalem a neutral city. And the dome of the rock is a UNESCO heritage site. The palestinians are the locals taking the abuse.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd previously not offered link because this has long been news.

I'm aware of that news; I wanted to be sure we were referencing the same thing. I agree, I'm against that.

Yet USA government tacitly condones it.

No, it doesn't.

By "not always" & "Some enemies" are you saying
this applies to Hamas, Palestinians, & other groups
in this conflict?

If anyone it applies to Hamas.

Such a belief is why Israel has been at war its
entire existence.
Belief that another cannot be reasoned with
makes the believer impossible to reason with.

Israel has repeatedly negotiated with these folks. Tell me you know this.

Consider encouraging them to change their charter.

Ha! Good luck!

And Israel must allow the Palestinians to have their
own country too....not just an open air prison with
Israeli guards.

On that we agree (and again, for the third time, Israel has repeatedly agreed to that goal).

Peace & justice don't strike me as nebulous.
I know'm when I see'm, & Israel doesn't offer'm to Palestinians.
Hence the violent resistance.

Our own country is full of people who incessantly debate about what constitutes justice. You don't know this?

Don't get all riled up & dissy.

Don't get all insulting.

You misunderstand my post.
Yes, Palestinians are victims, & Hamas is making it worse for
them. But Hamas exists only because Israel sets the stage for
this conflict by oppressing the Palestinians.

That's just factually wrong. Hamas is a recent iteration of a very old antisemitic, Islamist ideology that perpetually frames Jews as the enemy. If you don't understand that historical dynamic that underlies this, you are missing a giant piece of the puzzle here.

Israel has the singular
power & responsibility to change this.

And they are currently working to make sure that the situation is indeed changed.

History bears out my claim, ie, the cycle
of conflict & war correlating with oppression
of Palestinians throughout Israel's history

It doesn't. Israel has repeatedly in its history attempted to make peace and create a two state solution for Palestinians. Palestine has repeatedly broken cease fires and refused to accept a two state solution as a goal.

If you can't think outside of your box,
you'll be trapped in it, & forever pursuing
vengeance against groups that fight
Israel's oppression of Palestinians.

If you don't study and learn from history, you will be hopelessly lost and misguided in offering suggestions to resolve the conflict.

Not with real change of a kind to allow
Palestinians peace, autonomy, & prosperity.

Simply untrue.
 
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