Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

[Shadow Wolf]

In war civilians get killed, and especially when the attacker embeds itself within the civilian population. Hamas by doing their particular action were either lunatics or nasty, cynical, and pathetic - so as to get the public anger and sympathy. They are as much responsible for this carnage as Israel.

Whatever built up to this might have been solved. This has made it almost impossible.

PS See the article in the Mirror posted in other replies.

Israel and Israel alone is responsible for it's actions. What they do and have done is not the fault of Hamas. IDF could be more precise and specific, they could specifically target Hamas operatives, but they have been widely, largely and mostly punishing civilians. That isn't normal war. This is Israel holding all Palestinians guilty. But they've been doing that since 06/07, when Hamas was able to win more than really did due to a part of Gaza elections that are staggered and winner takes all. And they reiterated the idea of "**** you if you're Palestinian" a couple years ago when they decided Palestinians of East Jerusalem would not be allowed to participate in a Palestinian Legislative election, and ultimately that was a big reason that election was called off.
This is more similar to when Boudica waged her terribly cruel and violent uprising against the Romans (she returned the favor and started by killing Roman women and children).
It's like Vlad Dracul III and the harrowing cruelty and violence he learned from his oppressors (the Ottoman Empire) and turned against them and others.
Or do you think Uncle Sam is guiltless amd did nothing to provoke raids by the Natives against white settlers?

 

[Revoltingest]

Those who concentrate on Israel are the ones falling into the trap.

Are you claiming that Israel has no responsibility
for the oppression that led to the Hamas attack?
Nor for Israel's war crimes?

 

[Bthoth]

Israel and Israel alone is responsible for it's actions.

Solid............. Keep in mind, Jews are not responsible for what israel is doing.

Or do you think Uncle Sam is guiltless amd did nothing to provoke raids by the Natives against white settlers?

The poster character did nothing..... I can't agree with that one. But I do see your point, the massacre of many indigenous tribesman and families, did teach the locals how to do the same to US settlers.

The settlers of the west bank have been attacking palestinians for years and right now they are still doing it.

Settlers are causing mayhem in the West Bank​

Palestinians are close to rebelling​

1hr ago



Who will open up a thread about Jews denouncing israel?

A tear in the tent: The US Jews who are protesting Israel ...​

Oct 11, 2023 — Galvanized by groups including 'IfNotNow' and 'Jewish Voice for Peace,' thousands of US Jews have denounced

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Palestinians are close to rebelling

What I don't get, now and for so mamy years the IDF has pointed out Hamas hides among civilians, aid workers, etc as a shield, and they haven't learned how to deal with that? Amd they want to keep saying that when living through ancient history is filled with so many examples that strongly indicate Israel is not handling this situation well? It's so predictable in the end it's likely to drive even more short Palestinian lives to join Hamas so they get to fight against those making nearly half of all Palestinians under 18 years old.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What I don't get, now and for so mamy years the IDF has pointed out Hamas hides among civilians, aid workers, etc as a shield, and they haven't learned how to deal with that?

What would you suggest?

 

[Revoltingest]

What would you suggest?

How about something other than war crimes?
How about prosecuting Jewish settlers who kill
& steal from Palestinians?
Perhaps Israel lets the settlers effect policies
government wants, while providing plausible
deniability.
(Something tells me I'm on <ignore> here.)

 

[Bthoth]

What I don't get, now and for so mamy years the IDF has pointed out Hamas hides among civilians, aid workers,

What is worse, israel claiming to be Jewish or Hamas, fighting while living in a concentration camp?

etc as a shield, and they haven't learned how to deal with that?

They are forced into living in a prison. It's about like the trustees fighting the guards.

But what HAMAS did in last month was wrong. I will not disagree with that nor will I condone any such terrorism.

What i am sick of is how israel has done more damage to Jews world wide with their policies than any good for Jews or the quality of Judaism.

Amd they want to keep saying that when living through ancient history is filled with so many examples that strongly indicate Israel is not handling this situation well?

The global community is tired of israel and it's methodology of apartheid

It's so predictable in the end it's likely to drive even more short Palestinian lives to join Hamas so they get to fight against those making nearly half of all Palestinians under 18 years old.

It's a sad situation.

 

[idea]

What is worse, israel claiming to be Jewish or Hamas, fighting while living in a concentration camp?

I'm not sure you know what a concentration camp is? Hamas is not living in a concentration camp.

 

[Left Coast]

I have noticed that bigots sling that term.

I've noticed they're accurately described by that term.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How about something other than war crimes?
How about prosecuting Jewish settlers who kill
& steal from Palestinians?
Perhaps Israel lets the settlers effect policies
government wants, while providing plausible
deniability.
(Something tells me I'm on <ignore> here.)

I don't say much in these threads, because I don't think I have much to contribute -- I just don't know how to go forward.

I grant -- it is TIME, beyond time for the IDF to ease up on Gaza. They're trodden into the earth, they've next-to-nothing left, so many innocents are dying and will die -- it's unbearable to watch for anybody who cares about human beings. I'm one of those, and that's why I agree that there must be a ceasefire and an immediate mobilization of humanitarian aid and a cessation of the more-than-useless maiming and killing.

But how does Israel do that? Do they get to ask, "could we please have our hostages (including the children) back?" And if the answer is "no?" Then what? Do they say, "oh, well, never mind -- kill them if you like. Now how would you like your relief delivered?" I know! There's only just over 200 of them. But those 200 are the responsibility of the Israeli government.

@Revoltingest, you seem focused on punishing Israel for past sins -- okay, maybe that should happen. I'm all for holding nations and their leaders accountable for crimes against humanity. But how will that help TODAY? That's the immediate crisis, the immediate problem that must be resolved NOW.

 

[Brickjectivity]

...Right now, I think that Israelis would feel very nervous about letting Arab states take over the occupation and administration of Gaza, since they could help to rearm Hamas clandestinely...

I think they'd be OK with it if it was one of the stable governments that would keep treaties. I don't know which one would be best, but I think they'd be OK with that. It would be a pragmatic and workable idea, but you'd have to run it by the UN. That would be the sticky part.

 

[idea]

The UN should run the entire area.

Flood the tunnels, accept the hostages are gone.
Disarm everyone.
Segregation needs to end. Mix up neighbors, mix up schools, require all business to hire/serve all.
Educational programs for all.

 

[Left Coast]

Since Israel ignored warnings in advance of the attack, I think that the Netanyahu government deserves a lot of the blame for what happened. So do many Israelis think that, apparently. However, the situation is very different now. Israel has largely eliminated the threat of another such attack in the near future.

To the extent they've done so, it's because they've killed Hamas fighters and destroyed their capability to launch further attacks. IOW, exactly what you're opposing them having done.

The task now is to root out and destroy Hamas.

And to free the hostages.

Missiles and bombs don't seem to be the best way to accomplish that, since they are actually causing Israel to lose a considerable amount of support from the international community.

How do you root out and destroy Hamas with no bombs or missiles?

Actually, they weren't compelled to release any hostages. They did so at the urging of the Qatar government as an attempt at confidence-building towards negotiations.

The notion that those two things are mutually exclusive, or that the timing had nothing to do with a looming Israeli ground invasion, strikes me as rather silly.

Israel ignored those releases, and I think you are very mistaken to think that they were just responding to force. If so, why are they still holding more than 200 hostages? Hamas still considers them to be bargaining chips.

If they released all the hostages, their bit of leverage would be gone. How you leap from "Hamas still has hostages" to "Israel should use no military force to defeat Hamas," I have no clue.

No, meaning that Israel needs to start allowing more than a trickle of humanitarian supplies. Gaza needs massive amounts of humanitarian aid now more than ever, and Israel has been deliberately blocking it.

We know why they've restricted supplies to Gaza. They don't want them diverted by Hamas. And they know Hamas is sitting on supplies it's not giving to its people.

It could take several forms other than simply bombing neighborhoods in the pursuit of elusive terrorists and the death of anyone who happens to be within blast radius of them. Ground operations with advice from American military, who had learned many lessons about how to conduct urban warfare in Iraq.

A ground operation is exactly what they're doing. And if you don't think they're militarily consulting with the US, I'm not sure what to tell you.

More effective, perhaps, would be to bring in Arab governments that would be willing to help once Israel stopped the indiscriminate bombings and expressed some willingness to receive their help....Right now, I think that Israelis would feel very nervous about letting Arab states take over the occupation and administration of Gaza, since they could help to rearm Hamas clandestinely. Moreover, I think that most Arab states are now in a position where it is politically impossible to be seen as doing anything at all to help Israel out of its self-created mess.

Sounds like you're conflicted about this option.

It strikes me as relevant to the question of the proportionality of Israel's response to October 7. Right now, it looks like pure revenge against the entire Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip, not just Hamas.

Proportionality is not assessed based simply on number of casualties per side in a conflict.

 

[Bthoth]

I'm not sure you know what a concentration camp is? Hamas is not living in a concentration camp.

Concentration camp GAZA, Israel. The population removed from palestinian lands illegally occupied by Israel.

Gaza: Israel's 'Open-Air Prison' at 15​

Human Rights Watch
https://www.hrw.org › news › 2022/06/14 › gaza-israe...



Jun 14, 2022 — For 15 years, Palestinians in Gaza have been trapped in what is effectively an open-air prison

Oct 13, 2023 — TRT World: You've referred in this interview and elsewhere to Gaza as a “concentration camp”.


Are you new to the topic (gaza)? Or do you have a problem with real world

Explained: The Gaza Concentration Camp​

Oct 13, 2023 — Over 75% of Palestinians in Gaza are refugees and were forced out of their homes where illegal Israeli settlers now live in nearby settlements

Let me guess, you are unaware of the apartheid known as israel?

 

[Bthoth]

I've noticed they're accurately described by that term.

I know, bigots actually believe themselves to be superior

 

[idea]

Concentration camp GAZA, Israel. The population removed from palestinian lands illegally occupied by Israel.

Gaza: Israel's 'Open-Air Prison' at 15​

Human Rights Watch
https://www.hrw.org › news › 2022/06/14 › gaza-israe...



Jun 14, 2022 — For 15 years, Palestinians in Gaza have been trapped in what is effectively an open-air prison

Oct 13, 2023 — TRT World: You've referred in this interview and elsewhere to Gaza as a “concentration camp”.


Are you new to the topic (gaza)? Or do you have a problem with real world

Explained: The Gaza Concentration Camp​

Oct 13, 2023 — Over 75% of Palestinians in Gaza are refugees and were forced out of their homes where illegal Israeli settlers now live in nearby settlements

Let me guess, you are unaware of the apartheid known as israel?

There are gas chambers where people are being burned alive?

Refugees, yes.
Concentration camp, no.

Both populations are victims exhibiting trauma response.

It's like throwing two animals who have been abused into the ring with one another.

I blame Christians - Christians started zionism, Christians waged ww1, ww2, Christians want Jews in Israel for the Christian version of Armageddon to start. Christians want ww3 to start.

 

[Revoltingest]

I grant -- it is TIME, beyond time for the IDF to ease up on Gaza. They're trodden into the earth, they've next-to-nothing left, so many innocents are dying and will die -- it's unbearable to watch for anybody who cares about human beings. I'm one of those, and that's why I agree that there must be a ceasefire and an immediate mobilization of humanitarian aid and a cessation of the more-than-useless maiming and killing.

It's about time, eh.

But how does Israel do that? Do they get to ask, "could we please have our hostages (including the children) back?" And if the answer is "no?" Then what? Do they say, "oh, well, never mind -- kill them if you like. Now how would you like your relief delivered?" I know! There's only just over 200 of them. But those 200 are the responsibility of the Israeli government.

Israel has killed 10,000+ now. How many should
they kill to get the hostages back...15,000...20,000?
Even if the dubious plan to continue the indiscriminate
bombing really does save all the hostages, what is
the ratio of value of lives, Jews : Muslims...1:1...10:1...100:1?

@Revoltingest, you seem focused on punishing Israel for past sins

That is a specious inference.
I have specifically said I hold Israel responsible for things....
- Oppression of Palestinians.
- War crimes against Palestinians.
- Refusal to seek peace.
Those are Israeli failures that they should cure.

-- okay, maybe that should happen.

I've not sought any punishment for Israel.
However, since you broached the issue,
Those in charge should be prosecuted for
war crimes.

I'm all for holding nations and their leaders accountable for crimes against humanity. But how will that help TODAY? That's the immediate crisis, the immediate problem that must be resolved NOW.

To help today....
- Cease fire.
- Allow humanitarian aid in Gaza & where they've fled.
- End the oppression of Palestinians.
- Give them back Gaza.
- Cooperate to give them their own autonomous country.
- End the assassinations in Iran.
- Stop pressuring USA to attack & war with Iran.

 

[Lyndon]

Israeli animals torture, maim and kill innocent Palestinian prisoners

MSN

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's about time, eh.

Israel has killed 10,000+ now. How many should
they kill to get the hostages back...15,000...20,000?
Even if the dubious plan to continue the indiscriminate
bombing really does save all the hostages, what is
the ratio of value of lives, Jews : Muslims...1:1...10:1...100:1?

That is a specious inference.
I have specifically said I hold Israel responsible for things....
- Oppression of Palestinians.
- War crimes against Palestinians.
- Refusal to seek peace.
Those are Israeli failures that they should cure.

I've not sought any punishment for Israel.
However, since you broached the issue,
Those in charge should be prosecuted for
war crimes.

To help today....
- Cease fire.
- Allow humanitarian aid in Gaza & where they've fled.
- End the oppression of Palestinians.
- Give them back Gaza.
- Cooperate to give them their own autonomous country.
- End the assassinations in Iran.
- Stop pressuring USA to attack & war with Iran.

Well, since you opine that those in charge (that would be the Israeli government) should be prosecuted, I'll object a bit to having my observation called "specious."

However, I note that you do not mention in all you wrote those 200+ hostages. You put up numbers, and argue (I think) for some sort of proportionality. But how would you argue the same thing if, say, Canada held a couple of hundred Michiganders hostage -- would your argument be the same? Don't kill more than a couple of hundred Canadians -- if we have to kill more, then we should probably let the hostages go?

(I know, ridiculous comparison, but we did beat you in war once....)

I'm sorry, I just find this whole thing so frustrating -- I don't know how to cope with hate. You know my background, you've read it before. I can't consider human lives just "numbers." Don't kill more of theirs than they have of ours? That just makes me sick.

Like I said, I haven't been posting much in these threads because I really don't think I have anything useful to say. I note @Lyndon's comment beginning with "Israeli animals." We don't make much progress by referring to each other as "animals."

Finally, I think it is time for the United States and its President to stand up and shout out loud that both sides are wrong. The U.S. only supports Israel as it does for stupid religious reasons -- it's the "holy land," it's where "Christ died." (Forgetting how stupid the notion that Christ had to die like the goat provided to Abraham to save Isaac, because God can't figure out how to forgive with shedding blood somewhere.)

Forgive me -- I've had one more beer than perhaps I ought. You may commence your ridicule of my limited wisdom...since I've already stipulated that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, since you opine that those in charge (that would be the Israeli government) should be prosecuted, I'll object a bit to having my observation called "specious."

You made your claim before I ever addressed punishment.
I only called for prosecution because you inspired it.

However, I note that you do not mention in all you wrote those 200+ hostages.

You're wrong....& presumptuous in your ad hominem.
You've not read all my posts.

You put up numbers, and argue (I think) for some sort of proportionality. But how would you argue the same thing if, say, Canada held a couple of hundred Michiganders hostage -- would your argument be the same? Don't kill more than a couple of hundred Canadians -- if we have to kill more, then we should probably let the hostages go?

(I know, ridiculous comparison, but we did beat you in war once....)

I'm sorry, I just find this whole thing so frustrating -- I don't know how to cope with hate. You know my background, you've read it before. I can't consider human lives just "numbers." Don't kill more of theirs than they have of ours? That just makes me sick.

Like I said, I haven't been posting much in these threads because I really don't think I have anything useful to say.

If you are to join the discussion, first read posts
in the threads. And be cautious about criticism
based upon inadequate consideration.
Also, avoid PUI (posting under the influence).

I note @Lyndon's comment beginning with "Israeli animals." We don't make much progress by referring to each other as "animals."

I agree.

Finally, I think it is time for the United States and its President to stand up and shout out loud that both sides are wrong.

This is a case where saying both sides are equally
guilty is a whitewash of Israel's war crimes, which
vastly overshadow Hamas's attacks....heading towards
a 10:1 kill ratio.
But what you want is the best we could ever hope for.
And it won't happen. USA politicians bow & scrape
before Israel.

The U.S. only supports Israel as it does for stupid religious reasons -- it's the "holy land," it's where "Christ died." (Forgetting how stupid the notion that Christ had to die like the goat provided to Abraham to save Isaac, because God can't figure out how to forgive with shedding blood somewhere.)

Forgive me -- I've had one more beer than perhaps I ought. You may commence your ridicule of my limited wisdom...since I've already stipulated that.

**** religion.
Our Christian President now joins
Israel in threatening nuclear war.