Israel Declares War After Hamas Attacks

[Left Coast]

What difference should the stated intent of a military power make to someone who has lost their family, gotten maimed, or had their city or country destroyed by said power's actions? Does the intent change the tangible, real-world results in any way?

I think that intent is more relevant to courtrooms and philosophical discussions than it is to the tangible results of a military's actions and those actions' effects on people.

Asking someone who has just lost loved ones in war to make an objective assessment of the situation is unfair and ignores the obvious human psychology of grief at play.

When we're talking as outside observers of the war, it behooves us to think a bit more objectively here. You're comparing a liberal democracy to a terrorist group that does not want Israel to exist. How many times must we say the obvious? It is clear that the political and ideological objectives of these two groups are not morally equivalent. On one hand, you're talking about a group whose objective is evil. On the other hand, you're talking about a country that has committed evils in the course of fighting a worthy cause (as has every democratic nation I know of).

If we're going to have any kind of discussion rooted in any reasonable sense of right and wrong, that distinction has to be kept clear.

 

[Lyndon]

Think through what you're saying.

"Intentionally killing as many civilians as possible" is somehow morally equivalent to "failing to take precautions to minimize civilians deaths?"

No.

Has Israel surely "failed to take precautions to minimize civilian deaths" in times of war? Yes I'm sure it has. It's very difficult to battle an enemy in a densely populated urban area with civilians everywhere.

None of that makes them morally equivalent to Hamas. It's silliness.

And some people are totally deluded, Israel is closer to a fascist dictatorship than a liberal democracy, Netanyahoo a liberal, give me a break

 

[Yerda]

The relevance is clear enough, I think. The Prime Minister of Israel has declared that his country is at war, and has vowed to 'reduce Gaza to rubble.' If Hamas is not a nation or a people, doesn't that beg the question, Who then, is Israel at war with?

Hamas.

It also begs the further question, Is Israel's government any better than her enemies?

Does this justify committing atrocities against Israeli people?

Who are the real terrorists?? read this link to see whos killing more than 10 times as many innocent civilians

This doesn't change what Hamas is.

You know it is possible to oppose murder no matter who does it?

Palestinians are civilians too. As i read your comment, it appears that you do not observe the palestinians as human beings and even parrot the same style of bias as israelis do. Using hate and labels as your method.

What comments did I make that suggest the Palestinians aren't human beings?

 

[Left Coast]

We asked: “You may have been following recent developments in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. In your opinion which of the following is closer to describing the way Israel looks to you.” We provided the following four options: a vibrant democracy; a flawed democracy; a state with restricted minority rights; a state with segregation similar to apartheid.

Brookings

Is Israel a democracy? Here’s what Americans think​

Shibley Telhami​

April 25, 2023

I am not posting the results but you will be surprised

The majority say they don't know. I'm not surprised at all by that.

That said, Israel's form of government isn't defined by a survey of random Americans.

 

[Left Coast]

And some people are totally deluded, Israel is closer to a fascist dictatorship than a liberal democracy, Netanyahoo a liberal, give me a break

You don't know what liberal means in this context.

 

[Bthoth]

The majority say they don't know. I'm not surprised at all by that.

That said, Israel's form of government isn't defined by a survey of random Americans.

I get it but it is US that helped create that state.

Have you not been watching the israeli citizens protesting their government over the last 6 month, over the very rights that 'we the people' find very important. Even Biden called the nutlessyahoo over the issue

 

[Left Coast]

More commentary, helping to explain what motivates Hamas:

A wounded, weakened Israel is a fiercer one

 

[anna.]

Everywhere I look online this morning (multiple liberal/progressive sites), there's a huge rift sundering apart people that would normally be in agreement or reasonably adjacent in their political outlooks and discussions. I can't think of another situation that's as equally divisive as yesterday's attack and the inevitable response to come. People whose opinions I respect are livid with each other, it's like a giant cleaver swung through. I'm not seeing similar at right-wing sites because they're pretty solidly united with Israel. The effect is so big I don't know what to make of it right now but wanted to mark the observation in the moment.

 

[Left Coast]

I get it but it is US that helped create that state.

In 1948. So what?

Have you not been watching the israeli citizens protesting their government over the last 6 month, over the very rights that 'we the people' find very important. Even Biden called the nutlessyahoo over the issue

What does this have to do with the price of eggs? I'm not a Netanyahu fan. I don't defend everything he does. That's light years apart from the atrocity just committed by Hamas. False moral equivalence isn't gonna get us anywhere.

 

[Left Coast]

Everywhere I look online this morning (multiple liberal/progressive sites), there's a huge rift sundering apart people that would normally be in agreement or reasonably adjacent in their political outlooks and discussions. I can't think of another political situation that's as equally divisive as yesterday's attack and the inevitable response to come. People whose opinions I respect are livid with each other, it's like a giant cleaver swung through. I'm not seeing it the same at rightwing sites because they're pretty much united with Israel. The effect is so big I don't know what to make of it right now but wanted to mark the observation in the moment.

Sadly there is a contingent of the left that completely loses its mind when the word "Israel" comes up. As you can see in this thread with a comparison to Nazi Germany. Rather than stand in solidarity with another democratic country who just suffered its worst attack in decades, they make excuses for terrorism and try to draw false equivalences that just don't hold water. I do hope we come together soon.

 

[Bthoth]

Hamas.

I see the news feeds but then watch the civilian homes being destroyed. Both sides are committing atrocities.

Does this justify committing atrocities against Israeli people?

And vise versus. At least I am willing to observe both sides. Just like I observe both sides of the LBGT issue.

This doesn't change what Hamas is.

Just the same on the other side. Zionism is not a right or good for either side.

You know it is possible to oppose murder no matter who does it?

Absolutely. The death of any persons is not good. I can sustain why. Can you?

What comments did I make that suggest the Palestinians aren't human beings?

Are you going to impose a word play.

There is no reason for israeli retaliatory strikes on civilian properties in gaza. Just by claiming Hamas is using the locations without actual immediate intelligence does not give the right. As I could flip the story and show that every israeli must join the military.

Be fair if equality is what is most important but never consider palestinians as less than.

 

[Bthoth]

In 1948. So what?

The location must remain a democracy with no ethnicity as a priority or end the funding (billions of US tax payers funds)

What does this have to do with the price of eggs? I'm not a Netanyahu fan. I don't defend everything he does. That's light years apart from the atrocity just committed by Hamas. False moral equivalence isn't gonna get us anywhere.

Just as Hamas is not a good thing either. both sides have bad guys.

Correct, there is no moral perfection from either side. As much as I appreciate that israel helps many people the world over, it does not defend the palestinians from the settlers or violence around and over the mount.

 

[Yerda]

Are you going to impose a word play.

There is no reason for israeli retaliatory strikes on civilian properties in gaza. Just by claiming Hamas is using the locations without actual immediate intelligence does not give the right. As I could flip the story and show that every israeli must join the military.

Be fair if equality is what is most important but never consider palestinians as less than.

I'm not trying to justify Israel's response. I find the "self defence" rhetoric to be just as crap as this "resistance" talk.

 

[Orbit]

Think through what you're saying.

"Intentionally killing as many civilians as possible" is somehow morally equivalent to "failing to take precautions to minimize civilians deaths?"

No.

Has Israel surely "failed to take precautions to minimize civilian deaths" in times of war? Yes I'm sure it has. It's very difficult to battle an enemy in a densely populated urban area with civilians everywhere.

None of that makes them morally equivalent to Hamas. It's silliness.

Hi. I used to think like you do about the Israel/Palestine situation, that is until I read the Palestine Papers. I read the diplomatic communications between the U.S., Palestinian, and Israeli officials trying to broker a peace for the region. What I found out was that not only did Palestine think Israel should not exist, Israel thought that Palestine should not exist, rejecting a proposed two-state solution.

Palestine Papers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The whole mess began when Israel was created after WWII. Historically, Israel has illegally expanded its borders, forcing Palestinians off their land. This is problematic.

An example, from my link below:
"The biggest change to Israel's frontiers came in 1967, when the conflict known as the Six Day War left Israel in occupation of the Sinai peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and most of the Syrian Golan Heights - effectively tripling the size of territory under Israel's control. Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem - claiming the whole of the city as its capital - and the Golan Heights. These moves were not recognised by the international community, until the US changed its official position on the matter under the Trump administration, becoming the first major power to do so. Overwhelmingly, international opinion continues to consider East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights as occupied territory."

Whole history of border expansion is here: Israel's borders explained in maps

The more I looked into it, the more I saw wrongdoing on both sides: desperate people forced from their land resorting to terrorism; Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children for throwing rocks at them; virtual apartheid; the abysmal treatment of Gaza. No one is innocent here, except for dead civilians.

It is a mess with too much historical baggage to recount here, but after looking into it I can no longer take sides.
Lest this attempt at contextualization be misunderstood, I condemn all terrorist attacks, but the Israeli role in prompting them can't be ignored. I have no idea what the solution is.

 

[Bthoth]

I'm not trying to justify Israel's response. I find the "self defence" rhetoric to be just as crap as this "resistance" talk.

The Palestinians and the people of gaza have no method of 'self defence'. But they can resist the illegal atrocities as it is about natural for human beings to want to refuse being thrown into a concentration camp (gaza)

 

[Left Coast]

Hi. I used to think like you do about the Israel/Palestine situation, that is until I read the Palestine Papers. I read the diplomatic communications between the U.S., Palestinian, and Israeli officials trying to broker a peace for the region. What I found out was that not only did Palestine think Israel should not exist, Israel thought that Palestine should not exist, rejecting a proposed two-state solution.

Palestine Papers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The whole mess began when Israel was created after WWII. Historically, Israel has illegally expanded its borders, forcing Palestinians off their land. This is problematic.

An example, from my link below:
"The biggest change to Israel's frontiers came in 1967, when the conflict known as the Six Day War left Israel in occupation of the Sinai peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and most of the Syrian Golan Heights - effectively tripling the size of territory under Israel's control. Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem - claiming the whole of the city as its capital - and the Golan Heights. These moves were not recognised by the international community, until the US changed its official position on the matter under the Trump administration, becoming the first major power to do so. Overwhelmingly, international opinion continues to consider East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights as occupied territory."

Whole history of border expansion is here: Israel's borders explained in maps

The more I looked into it, the more I saw wrongdoing on both sides: desperate people forced from their land resorting to terrorism; Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children for throwing rocks at them; virtual apartheid; the abysmal treatment of Gaza. No one is innocent here, except for dead civilians.

It is a mess with too much historical baggage to recount here, but after looking into it I can no longer take sides.
Lest this attempt at contextualization be misunderstood, I condemn all terrorist attacks, but the Israeli role in prompting them can't be ignored. I have no idea what the solution is.

I don't have time to respond to this today but I appreciate you sharing your thinking. Dealing with some family things today. I'll plan to say more later.

 

[We Never Know]

After Hamas, the Islamist group that leads the Gaza Strip, launched thousands of missiles at Israel and invaded southern Israeli towns near Gaza, killing at least 100 Israelis and taking hostages, Israel has declared war and promised a counter-strike.

Israel vows 'mighty vengeance' after surprise attack

The worst attack on Israel for decades unleashed a war that both sides vowed to escalate. Hundreds were reported killed and thousands wounded on both sides after Israel responded with massive air strikes.

www.reuters.com

May Hamas be quickly defeated and the region be at peace soon.

Imagine that. Russia calls for an immediate cease fire in Gaza.

"In a recent development, Russia has urgently called for an immediate ceasefire. The Russian Foreign Ministry made the announcement, emphasizing the need to de-escalate the ongoing conflict.

"The situation in Gaza is deteriorating rapidly, and we call for an immediate ceasefire," said Maria Zakharova, the spokesperson for the Russian Foreign Ministry according to AP.

She further added, "It is crucial to prevent further loss of life and to ensure the safety of civilians."

The call from Russia comes amid escalating violence in the region, which has led to numerous casualties and widespread destruction. The Russian government is urging both sides to halt hostilities and engage in dialogue to resolve the conflict."

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[Left Coast]

The location must remain a democracy with no ethnicity as a priority or end the funding (billions of US tax payers funds)

It is a democracy. It was specifically founded as a homeland for Jews, but has protections against discrimination for both religion and race (and other classes).

Just as Hamas is not a good thing either. both sides have bad guys.

Correct, there is no moral perfection from either side. As much as I appreciate that israel helps many people the world over, it does not defend the palestinians from the settlers or violence around and over the mount.

See my post #81. There is no moral perfection anywhere, but the fact that you're morally imperfect doesn't make you Hitler. We have to maintain some rational distinctions in degree and kind.

 

[Bthoth]

It is a democracy. It was specifically founded as a homeland for Jews,

Just by labeling and identifying that religious designation, exposes and inherent bigotry. Dividing people by religious preferences.

but has protections against discrimination for both religion and race (and other classes).

Not by your comment.

See my post #81. There is no moral perfection anywhere, but the fact that you're morally imperfect doesn't make you Hitler. We have to maintain some rational distinctions in degree and kind.

What is rational about dividing people by race, ethnicity, religions or gender?

 

[Wandering Monk]

I get it but it is US that helped create that state.

Have you not been watching the israeli citizens protesting their government over the last 6 month, over the very rights that 'we the people' find very important. Even Biden called the nutlessyahoo over the issue

Russia voted for the partition that created Israel in 1947. Do they get the same disdain?