Israel dragging USA down

[Tamar]

I have to post it one more time (sorry) because I am truly interested to hear other viewpoints on the issues I brought up. If they're really irrelevent to the conversation, I apologize for repeating them, and I'll get over my confusion shortly I guess.

Kuwait expelled 450,000 Palestinians at the end of the Gulf War in 1991. Prior to that expulsion, Palestinians made up nearly 30 percent of Kuwait's population.

Jordan continues to refuse citizenship applications from Palestinians -they absolutely will not allow a Palestinian to become a citizen, no way, no how. In fact, in the case of Palestinians who have in the past been able to become citizens, their Jordanian citizenship has been REVOKED.

Lebanon greatly restricts the basic rights of Palestinian refugees. They are denied access to Lebanese healthcare. They are not allowed to own property, and have to have special permission to even leave their camp. They are not alllowed to work in most job categories. Amnesty International has decried their treatment repeatedly.

The Arab League has instructed it's members to deny citizenship rights to Palestinians.

In the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 13 declares that "Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country." Every single Arab League state voted AGAINST this resolution!

The Arab States are no friends to the Palestinians - in part because loosely affiliated people in the Palestine area opposed heavy handed Muslim rule in the 19th century.

In fact, Palestinians have NEVER ruled themselves - they were dominated by the Ottoman Empire, then by the British, then by Jordan and Egypt, and of course Israel.

The "Palestinian Identity" is a fairly new concept, dating back to the early twentieth century. Prior to that time frame, the people living in the Palestine area identified themselves via religious and clan affiliation. In fact, genetically speaking, most Palestinians are descended from Levantine Christians and Jews, though over the centuries many converted to Islam. Before the 1948 war, the term "Palestinian" meant ANYONE from "Palestine," - including Jews living in the area.

The British Census of 1922 registered 752,048 inhabitants in Palestine, consisting of 660,641 Palestinian Arabs (Christian and Muslim Arabs), 83,790 Palestinian Jews, and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. The corresponding percentage breakdown is 87% Christian and Muslim Arab and 11% Jewish. Bedouin were not counted in the census, but a 1930 British study estimated their number at 70,860.

In 1968 the Palestine National Council defined "Palestinian" as "those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father – whether in Palestine or outside it – is also a Palestinian."

(Various Wiki articles as source.)

I just thought this was all pretty interesting.

I firmly believe that the ONLY reason that the Arab states "support" Palestinian rights (and some pretty poor support that is) is because they want to see the complete and total dissolution of the state of Israel. They couldn't care less about the actual human rights of Palestinians.

The Palestinians are a pawn. I feel sorry for them - they are a desperate people who are not wanted by anyone - but in their desperation must allow themselves to be used. Their Arab supporters will no doubt discard them like unneeded trash once their own political motives are fulfilled.

What a truthful post. They are not wanted by anyone and used by everyone and Israel is the country that suffers because all of the ME wants them gone and are using the Palestinians to do it.

That is the worst human rights violation in my book but no one seems to notice that.

All the ME countries have not only added to the refugee problem and are using the refugee problem but where is the UN and all those others screaming about human rights violations? Those screaming about the Palestinians and Israel don't want to acknowledge that most in the refugee camps are from all the surrounding countries, not Israel.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Please. Everyone calm down.

You know what - I didn't get one single response to my posts about six pages back. That's a first!

Oh well, carry on.

I doubt you will get Alceste to comment on this. I would be happy to hear from any Muslims as well, especially a Jordanian.

The thing is, usually after 20 pages or so most threads digress and this thread is demonstrating my point well.

 

[Kathryn]

Thanks for the feedback - I don't have any handy answers for these issues, by the way.

I do think it's ironic that so many people don't see the inconsistency with the demands to divide Israel and totally ignoring the "space available" in Jordan. Why not start there? Or at least start by demanding that Palestinians in other Arab states are given the right to become full fledged citizens.

But..maybe people see the total futility in asking the Arab states to be fair, equitable, and reasonable. It's not like their track record would imply that they have either the capability or the sense of moral responsibility.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What a truthful post.

It was, indeed, a good post.

But Tamar, Tu Quoque is not much of an argument. (It reminds me a bit of those who gave back-handed support to Jim Crow by cynically condemning the oppression of Africans by fellow Africans.

 

[Tamar]

It was, indeed, a good post.

But Tamar, Tu Quoque is not much of an argument. (It reminds me a bit of those who gave back-handed support to Jim Crow by cynically condemning the oppression of Africans by fellow Africans.

I disagree because I see that there are human rights in Israel but I also see there are human rights in the greater ME and all are against the Palestinians.

What I see also are that the world and the ME is expecting Israel to right her wrongs and for the greater ME who are also wrong to be excused for their behavior.

All the refugees are not all from Israel, they are from all the Arab countries who have booted them out.

The Arab countries who have not allowed for resettlement because they want Israel gone and to allow for resettlement would take away the refugee issues.

I think its important to look at how all sides have caused the situation of today with the Palestinians.

It is not all Israel.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I disagree because I see that there are human rights in Israel ...

There are also attrocious human rights abuses (too often conveniently ignored by branding all those to who point to them as "pseudo-intellectual leftist idiots").

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would be happy to hear from any Muslims as well, especially a Jordanian.

It's more than a little interesting that you would use the term 'Muslim' instead of 'Arab'.

 

[murtaad]

I don't think the US is holding Israel down. Israel is a loyal and beneficial ally who is ever so much important in today's unstable world.

If anything, the US has been holding Israel back for the past 30 years or so.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It's more than a little interesting that you would use the term 'Muslim' instead of 'Arab'.

Are there any Arabs in Jordon that are not Muslim? If so please accept my apology.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Are there any Arabs in Jordon that are not Muslim? If so please accept my apology.

Are you serious? You also going to say there are no non-Muslims in all of Arab world?

 

[Tamar]

There are also attrocious human rights abuses (too often conveniently ignored by branding all those to who point to them as "pseudo-intellectual leftist idiots").

As I reread my post I did leave out human rights violations which is what I meant to say.

Sometimes my head is ahead of what I am typing.

I meant to say there are human rights violations in Israel and in the surrounding Arab countries that have allowed the refugees to stay in camps and have pushed out Palestinians from their lands to end up in refugee camps.

I agree that both Israel and the ME countries have human rights violations, not just Israel.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would be happy to hear from any Muslims as well, especially a Jordanian.

It's more than a little interesting that you would use the term 'Muslim' instead of 'Arab'.

Are there any Arabs in Jordon that are not Muslim? If so please accept my apology.

I much prefer honesty to disingenuous apologies.

Your comment (i.e., "I would be happy to hear from any Muslims as well, especially a Jordanian") clearly reflects an orientation that prefers to frame the question(s) in religious rather than territorial terms.

 

[Alceste]

I have to post it one more time (sorry) because I am truly interested to hear other viewpoints on the issues I brought up. If they're really irrelevent to the conversation, I apologize for repeating them, and I'll get over my confusion shortly I guess.

Kuwait expelled 450,000 Palestinians at the end of the Gulf War in 1991. Prior to that expulsion, Palestinians made up nearly 30 percent of Kuwait's population.

Jordan continues to refuse citizenship applications from Palestinians -they absolutely will not allow a Palestinian to become a citizen, no way, no how. In fact, in the case of Palestinians who have in the past been able to become citizens, their Jordanian citizenship has been REVOKED.

Lebanon greatly restricts the basic rights of Palestinian refugees. They are denied access to Lebanese healthcare. They are not allowed to own property, and have to have special permission to even leave their camp. They are not alllowed to work in most job categories. Amnesty International has decried their treatment repeatedly.

The Arab League has instructed it's members to deny citizenship rights to Palestinians.

In the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 13 declares that "Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country." Every single Arab League state voted AGAINST this resolution!

The Arab States are no friends to the Palestinians - in part because loosely affiliated people in the Palestine area opposed heavy handed Muslim rule in the 19th century.

In fact, Palestinians have NEVER ruled themselves - they were dominated by the Ottoman Empire, then by the British, then by Jordan and Egypt, and of course Israel.

The "Palestinian Identity" is a fairly new concept, dating back to the early twentieth century. Prior to that time frame, the people living in the Palestine area identified themselves via religious and clan affiliation. In fact, genetically speaking, most Palestinians are descended from Levantine Christians and Jews, though over the centuries many converted to Islam. Before the 1948 war, the term "Palestinian" meant ANYONE from "Palestine," - including Jews living in the area.

The British Census of 1922 registered 752,048 inhabitants in Palestine, consisting of 660,641 Palestinian Arabs (Christian and Muslim Arabs), 83,790 Palestinian Jews, and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. The corresponding percentage breakdown is 87% Christian and Muslim Arab and 11% Jewish. Bedouin were not counted in the census, but a 1930 British study estimated their number at 70,860.

In 1968 the Palestine National Council defined "Palestinian" as "those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father – whether in Palestine or outside it – is also a Palestinian."

(Various Wiki articles as source.)

I just thought this was all pretty interesting.

I firmly believe that the ONLY reason that the Arab states "support" Palestinian rights (and some pretty poor support that is) is because they want to see the complete and total dissolution of the state of Israel. They couldn't care less about the actual human rights of Palestinians.

The Palestinians are a pawn. I feel sorry for them - they are a desperate people who are not wanted by anyone - but in their desperation must allow themselves to be used. Their Arab supporters will no doubt discard them like unneeded trash once their own political motives are fulfilled.

Do you know what this reminds me of? The West's rejection of Jewish refugees and migrants during WWII. Canada, for example, sent a boat of Jewish refugees that had made it to our shores back to Europe to die. Frederick Charles Blair, who headed our immigration policy at the time, was immortalized for saying "none is too many" referring to Jewish immigrants and comparing them to hogs at a trough. I think that's absolutely shameful. I am glad that the Jewish people have successfully carved themselves out a piece of their ancestral homeland and established self-government and a safe haven for the Jewish diaspora.

Wouldn't it be great if Palestinians could enjoy the same luxury?

I can't agree that clearing out all the Arabs right up to the borders of Egypt and Jordon and replacing them with Jews is the answer. 1, it would be illegal. 2, it would necessitate another expensive wall. 3, it would not protect Palestinians from the discrimination you describe, and 4, it would ignite WWIII.

Certainly, I think any voluntary migrant from Palestine (or anywhere, really) should be welcomed in the Arab states and treated as an equal, but I suspect there are few Palestinians who would rather their people be scattered than attain self-government.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do you know what this reminds me of? The West's rejection of Jewish refugees and migrants during WWII. Canada, for example, sent a boat of Jewish refugees that had made it to our shores back to Europe to die. Frederick Charles Blair, who headed our immigration policy at the time, was immortalized for saying "none is too many" referring to Jewish immigrants and comparing them to hogs at a trough. I think that's absolutely shameful. I am glad that the Jewish people have successfully carved themselves out a piece of their ancestral homeland and established self-government and a safe haven for the Jewish diaspora.

Wouldn't it be great if Palestinians could enjoy the same luxury?

Absolutely.

 

[Alceste]

I doubt you will get Alceste to comment on this. I would be happy to hear from any Muslims as well, especially a Jordanian.

The thing is, usually after 20 pages or so most threads digress and this thread is demonstrating my point well.

Well, in order to determine whether the US policy of unwavering support, often alone, of Israel is harming their reputation we first have to look at whether or not Israel is always right. Seems we can't get past this basic step - too many people are outraged by any suggestion that Palestinians ought to enjoy personal security and basic human dignity, or at least the full protection of the Geneva Convention.

 

[Levite]

I have to post it one more time (sorry) because I am truly interested to hear other viewpoints on the issues I brought up. If they're really irrelevent to the conversation, I apologize for repeating them, and I'll get over my confusion shortly I guess.

Kuwait expelled 450,000 Palestinians at the end of the Gulf War in 1991. Prior to that expulsion, Palestinians made up nearly 30 percent of Kuwait's population.

Jordan continues to refuse citizenship applications from Palestinians -they absolutely will not allow a Palestinian to become a citizen, no way, no how. In fact, in the case of Palestinians who have in the past been able to become citizens, their Jordanian citizenship has been REVOKED.

Lebanon greatly restricts the basic rights of Palestinian refugees. They are denied access to Lebanese healthcare. They are not allowed to own property, and have to have special permission to even leave their camp. They are not alllowed to work in most job categories. Amnesty International has decried their treatment repeatedly.

The Arab League has instructed it's members to deny citizenship rights to Palestinians.

In the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 13 declares that "Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country." Every single Arab League state voted AGAINST this resolution!

The Arab States are no friends to the Palestinians - in part because loosely affiliated people in the Palestine area opposed heavy handed Muslim rule in the 19th century.

In fact, Palestinians have NEVER ruled themselves - they were dominated by the Ottoman Empire, then by the British, then by Jordan and Egypt, and of course Israel.

The "Palestinian Identity" is a fairly new concept, dating back to the early twentieth century. Prior to that time frame, the people living in the Palestine area identified themselves via religious and clan affiliation. In fact, genetically speaking, most Palestinians are descended from Levantine Christians and Jews, though over the centuries many converted to Islam. Before the 1948 war, the term "Palestinian" meant ANYONE from "Palestine," - including Jews living in the area.

The British Census of 1922 registered 752,048 inhabitants in Palestine, consisting of 660,641 Palestinian Arabs (Christian and Muslim Arabs), 83,790 Palestinian Jews, and 7,617 persons belonging to other groups. The corresponding percentage breakdown is 87% Christian and Muslim Arab and 11% Jewish. Bedouin were not counted in the census, but a 1930 British study estimated their number at 70,860.

In 1968 the Palestine National Council defined "Palestinian" as "those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father – whether in Palestine or outside it – is also a Palestinian."

(Various Wiki articles as source.)

I just thought this was all pretty interesting.

I firmly believe that the ONLY reason that the Arab states "support" Palestinian rights (and some pretty poor support that is) is because they want to see the complete and total dissolution of the state of Israel. They couldn't care less about the actual human rights of Palestinians.

The Palestinians are a pawn. I feel sorry for them - they are a desperate people who are not wanted by anyone - but in their desperation must allow themselves to be used. Their Arab supporters will no doubt discard them like unneeded trash once their own political motives are fulfilled.

Great post, Kathryn! Frubals.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Are you serious? You also going to say there are no non-Muslims in all of Arab world?

Well, there are exceptions to any rule. My experience comes from going to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. I was not allowed to wear a cross, so I just assumed most everyone was Muslim there.

I want to say that I was treated very well during my stay as a contractor and to date, I have always got along with any Muslims I have encountered state side and over seas.

I am currently reading the Koran and to tell the truth, agree with monotheism and have even considered converting and have not yet decided. I have much more to read and understand before making any decision.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I much prefer honesty to disingenuous apologies.

Your comment (i.e., "I would be happy to hear from any Muslims as well, especially a Jordanian") clearly reflects an orientation that prefers to frame the question(s) in religious rather than territorial terms.

It is a religious issue Jay. To say that religion or at least religious hate is not involved here is disingenuous on your part.

You want honesty? I absolutely love the Jewish people. I have a more recent affection for Muslims as well.

I want everyone to live in peace and harmony but I am also a realist.

All of us have faults and I believe your attempt to make this personal is deflecting.

 

[Tellurian]

kathryn

The Arab League has instructed it's members to deny citizenship rights to Palestinians.

I wonder if the reason the Arab nations do not give citizenship to the Palestinians is because they see that as being what the Zionist Israelis want them to do. If an Arab nation started giving citizenship to Palestinians, then the Israelis would start shouting, "See, there is someplace else the Palestinians can go instead of staying in the West Bank or Gaza." Of course the Zionist Israelis want to see the Palestinians go someplace else so they can then claim the Palestinian's West Bank and Gaza as being Israeli territory.

 

[Reverend Rick]

kathryn



I wonder if the reason the Arab nations do not give citizenship to the Palestinians is because they see that as being what the Zionist Israelis want them to do. If an Arab nation started giving citizenship to Palestinians, then the Israelis would start shouting, "See, there is someplace else the Palestinians can go instead of staying in the West Bank or Gaza." Of course the Zionist Israelis want to see the Palestinians go someplace else so they can then claim the Palestinian's West Bank and Gaza as being Israeli territory.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but did not the Israeli's give up the Gaza strip so that peace could be established?