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Israel dragging USA down

Alceste

Vagabond
Right. I got confused, read the question wrong or something.

Obviously those who reject being a part of israel are those claiming Israel isn't a legitimate state and wanting to take a slice of it (or all of it) for themselves (but not before pummeling it with rockets or strapping bombs to their own children and sending them in to blow up a bus full of civilians, of course).

A two state solution would go a long way to cooling off Islamic extremism in Palestine. I'm not sure if you're aware of the conditions Palestinians live in under the occupation, but it is exactly the type of atmosphere that makes extremism inevitable. In fact, I wonder why it isn't worse than it is.

Israel has a lot more blood on its hands than Palestinians due, simply by virtue of being better armed. I'm not capable of being more outraged by people who fire rockets over the wall one way than I am by people who fire in the opposite direction. Violence is wrong to me no matter who is doing it.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I dont know. Maybe because the Jewish government is biased? Make Israeli government more secular then maybe more Palestinians would want that.
Compared to its neighbors, Israel is a bastion of pluralism, secularism, religious freedom and democracy. Homosexuals and women have far more rights there than they do anywhere else in the middle east. If the palistinians were to get their own state, it would end up being another third world, totalitarian, theocratic cesspit. And the world already has more than enough of those.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
And Ashkenazim lived in Eastern Europe much longer then they have in Israel.

Give proof that majority of Palestinians are not from the area.

It's a silly argument anyway. If everybody is supposed to go back where they came from, that would be the end of the "Jewish character" of Israel; an outcome I am certain shermana does not desire in the least.
 

sadiq

Spain, Morocco, Jerusalem
knife-man.jpg


don't you just love 'em peace activists?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Compared to its neighbors, Israel is a bastion of pluralism, secularism and democracy. Homosexuals and women have far more rights there than they do anywhere else in the middle east. If the palistinians were to get their own state, it woul end up being another third world, theocratic cesspit. And the world already has more than enough of those.

Even the Arab world has had enough of those. I am reserving judgment on what they are capable of achieving in the region until the "Arab spring" has played out.

OTOH, I have a strong suspicion Israel is gearing up for an attack on Egypt, which would be a major setback.
 

sadiq

Spain, Morocco, Jerusalem
Two can play at that game.

idf-abuse.jpg
Is he being killed?(or her )
I'd much rather be him than the Israeli soldier facing the Arab with the Jambiya knowing he cannot shoot because he'd be cruicified and suddenly that fat man becomes "an innocent palestinian shoe maker".
HAHAHA A STRONG SUSPICION ISRAEL IS GEARING UP FOR AN ATTACK ON EGYPT?
MAYBE THE OTHER WAY AROUND GENIUS?!

don't be ridiculous 92% of Egyptians consider Israel a Hostile country, 92% of Israelis don't give a damn about Egypt, Every second man in Egypt who does something wrong is accused of being a "Mossad Spy".
Egyptians are spamming Israeli Facebook pages with "HAHA REMEMBER 1973(in which we still kinda lost but meh)" While Binyamin Netanyahu states he still considers Egypt an ally.
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Nobody is arguing that Jewish people shouldn't be able to live there. Only whether right wing Jewish politicians should be allowed to unilaterally declare how things are going to be for Palestinians.

The Palestinians could have declared how things are going to be for them many years ago but instead they chose the path thats led them to where they are.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
A two state solution would go a long way to cooling off Islamic extremism in Palestine. I'm not sure if you're aware of the conditions Palestinians live in under the occupation, but it is exactly the type of atmosphere that makes extremism inevitable. In fact, I wonder why it isn't worse than it is.
What created those conditions? Such an atomosphere could've been avoided by not giving Israel a reason to take such defensive/preventative measures in the first place.

Israel has a lot more blood on its hands than Palestinians due, simply by virtue of being better armed. I'm not capable of being more outraged by people who fire rockets over the wall one way than I am by people who fire in the opposite direction. Violence is wrong to me no matter who is doing it.
Perhaps this sort of thing tips that scale just a little?
images
images
9k=
images
child_suicide_bomber.jpg
hamas2.jpg


If they don't want to be dealt with as savages then perhaps the best course of action would to be stop behaving like savages. I know both sides have done wrong, but the above simply makes it impossible for me to sympathize with the palistinians.
 

Shermana

Heretic
And Ashkenazim lived in Eastern Europe much longer then they have in Israel.

Give proof that majority of Palestinians are not from the area.


The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931 :: Middle East Quarterly

Evidence for Arab Migration

There are several problems associated with estimating Arab immigration into Palestine during the 1920s, the principal one being that Arab migration flows were, in the main, illegal, and therefore unreported and unrecorded.[17] But they were not entirely unnoticed.
Demographer U.O. Schmelz's analysis of the Ottoman registration data for 1905 populations of Jerusalem and Hebron kazas (Ottoman districts), by place of birth, showed that of those Arab Palestinians born outside their localities of residence, approximately half represented intra-Palestine movement—from areas of low-level economic activity to areas of higher-level activity—while the other half represented Arab immigration into Palestine itself, 43 percent originating in Asia, 39 percent in Africa, and 20 percent in Turkey.[18] Schmelz conjectured:
The above-average population growth of the Arab villages around the city of Jerusalem, with its Jewish majority, continued until the end of the mandatory period. This must have been due—as elsewhere in Palestine under similar conditions—to in-migrants attracted by economic opportunities, and to the beneficial effects of improved health services in reducing mortality—just as happened in other parts of Palestine around cities with a large Jewish population sector.[19]
While Schmelz restricted his research of the 1905 Palestinian census to the official Ottoman registrations and used these registrations with only minor critical comment, he did acknowledge that "stable population models assume the absence of external migrations, a condition which was obviously not met by all the subpopulations" that Schmelz enumerated.[20]
Like U.O. Schmelz, Roberto Bachi expressed some reservation about the virtual non-existence of data and discussion concerning migration into and within Palestine. He writes:
Between 1800 and 1914, the Muslim population had a yearly average increase in the order of magnitude of roughly 6-7 per thousand. This can be compared to the very crude estimate of about 4 per thousand for the "less developed countries" of the world (in Asia, Africa, and Latin America) between 1800 and 1910. It is possible that part of the growth of the Muslim population was due to immigration.[21]
Although Bachi did not pursue the linkage between undocumented immigration into Palestine and the 6 (or 7) to 4 per thousand differential in growth rates between Palestine and the other less developed countries (LDCs), the idea that at least one-third of Palestine's population growth may be attributed to immigration is—using Bachi's own growth rate differentials—not an entirely unreasonable one.
Lacking verifiable evidence did not prevent Bachi from stating the obvious concerning internal migration within Palestine:
The great economic development of the coastal plains—largely due to Jewish immigration—was accompanied both in 1922-1931 and in 1931-1944 by a much stronger increase of the Muslim and Christian populations in this region than that registered in other regions. This was probably due to two reasons: stronger decrease in mortality of the non-Jewish population in the neighborhood of Jewish areas and internal migration toward the more developed zones.[22]
In the footnote accompanying this quote, Bachi writes: "As no statistics are available for internal migration, this conclusion has been obtained from indirect evidence."[23] Bachi's footnote is instructive. The "indirect evidence" he referred to no doubt included his understanding of the important role economics plays in explaining demographic movements.

****
There has been unrecorded illegal immigration of both Jews and Arabs in the period since the census of 1931, but it is clear that, since it cannot be recorded, no estimate of its volume is possible.[25]
The 1935 British report to the League of Nations noted that:
One thousand five hundred and fifty-seven persons (including 565 Jews) who, having made their way into the country surreptitiously, were later detected, were sentenced to imprisonment for their offence and recommended for deportation.[26]
The number who "made their way into the country surreptitiously" and undetected was neither estimated nor mentioned.
Historian Gad Gilbar's observation on Ruth Kark's contribution to his edited volume Ottoman Palestine, 1800-1914, touches on the issue of Arab immigration into and within Palestine. He relates her ideas in "The Rise and Decline of Coastal Towns in Palestine" to Charles Issawi's thesis concerning the role of minority groups and foreigners in the development of Middle Eastern towns. Explaining why no other Palestinian cities grew as rapidly as Jaffa and Haifa did during the final three decades of the Ottoman rule, Gilbar writes: "Both attracted population from the rural and urban surroundings and immigrants from outside Palestine."[27]
***
This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Trans-Jordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery.[29]
Estimating Real Numbers

The derivation of Palestine migration estimates in this section is based on an uncomplicated imputation theory. Migration becomes a residual claimant for numbers not explained by a population-estimating model based on known initial population stocks and known sets of birth and death rates for that population. In this way, expected population stocks can be derived for any set of subsequent years.

***

It is not surprising then that the British census data produce an Arab Palestinian population growth for 1922-31 that turns out to be generated by natural increase and legal migrations alone. Applying a 2.5 per annum growth rate[30] to a population stock of 589,177 for 1922 generates a 1931 population estimate of 735,799 or 97.6 percent of the 753,822 recorded in the 1931 census. Does the imputation model then "prove" that illegal immigration into Palestine was inconsequential during 1922-31? Not at all. A footnote accompanying the census's population time series acknowledges the presence in Palestine of illegal Arab immigration. But because it could not be recorded, no estimate of its numbers was included in the census count.[31] Ignoring illegal migrants does not mean they don't exist.
Setting illegal immigration into Palestine aside, the imputation model does generate substantial migrations of Arab Palestinians within Palestine itself and confirms what many demographers, historians, government administrators, and economists have alluded to: the migration of Arab Palestinians from villages, towns, and cities of low economic opportunity to villages, towns, and cities of higher economic opportunity.
Which towns, villages, and cities offered the higher economic opportunity? Analyzing the 1922 and 1931 demographic data by sub-district and separating those sub-districts of Palestine that eventually became 1948 Israel—that is, sub-districts that had relatively large Jewish populations (with accompanying Jewish capital and modern technology)—from those that were not designated as part of 1948 Israel, identified not only the direction of Arab Palestinian migration within Palestine but its magnitude as well.[32]
The Arab Palestinian populations within those sub-districts that eventually became Israel increased from 321,866 in 1922 to 463,288 in 1931 or by 141,422. Applying the 2.5 per annum natural rate of population growth to the 1922 Arab Palestinian population generates an expected population size for 1931 of 398,498 or 64,790 less than the actual population recorded in the British census. By imputation, this unaccounted population increase must have been either illegal immigration not accounted for in the British census and/or registered Arab Palestinians moving from outside the Jewish-identified sub-districts to those sub-districts so identified.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Even the Arab world has had enough of those. I am reserving judgment on what they are capable of achieving in the region until the "Arab spring" has played out.
Meh, the arab spring is just replacing pro-west dictators with Islamic fundamentalist dictators.

OTOH, I have a strong suspicion Israel is gearing up for an attack on Egypt, which would be a major setback.

What would it hope to gain by doing that?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
What created those conditions? Such an atomosphere could've been avoided by not giving Israel a reason to take such defensive/preventative measures in the first place.

Perhaps this sort of thing tips that scale just a little?
9k=


If they don't want to be dealt with as savages then perhaps the best course of action would to be stop behaving like savages. I know both sides have done wrong, but the above simply makes it impossible for me to sympathize with the palistinians.

Fun! The use of provocative and disturbing photos in place of a coherent argument! This is so much easier!

021227_hebron_search_full.jpg


030705_gilo_checkpoint.jpg


020331_ramallah_reuters.jpg


soldiers_beating_boy.jpg



arrest20.jpg



settlers_violence01.jpg


020610_eastjerusalem_reuters.jpg


If you want more - videos and all, it's coming from here: B'Tselem | The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

We could go on pretending to be all adversarial, but I am sure we would both prefer that NEITHER Israel or Palestine resort to violence to achieve their political objectives. Is that not true? You can't really be arguing that Israeli violence is OK but Palestinian violence is not? And surely you are not arguing that ALL Palestinians want to blow up their children?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Fun! The use of provocative and disturbing photos in place of a coherent argument! This is so much easier!

If you want more - videos and all, it's coming from here: B'Tselem | The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

We could go on pretending to be all adversarial, but I am sure we would both prefer that NEITHER Israel or Palestine resort to violence to achieve their political objectives. Is that not true? You can't really be arguing that Israeli violence is OK but Palestinian violence is not? And surely you are not arguing that ALL Palestinians want to blow up their children?

I'm not trying to justify any sort of violence that isn't done in self defense, but regarding your pictures I'm not sure if arresting people is actually comparable to indoctrinating children with violent ideology and strapping bombs to them. Of course not ALL palestinians exploit their children to such a degree, but it seems to be rather permissible and prevalent.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Meh, the arab spring is just replacing pro-west dictators with Islamic fundamentalist dictators.

Tunisian government lifts restrictions on women
Capital News » Revolutionists want Egypt
What's next for the Arab Spring? - CNN.com

What would it hope to gain by doing that?

Beats me. It's impossible for me to view the actions of Israel's leadership as rational. What does it hope to gain from the Gaza blockade? What did it hope to gain by attacking Lebanon? It seems to me the government of Israel simply likes to beat people up, and so goes out of its way to create conditions where it is politically popular to brutalize their Arab neighbours.

Nevertheless, they are building up troops at the Egyptian border and killing Egyptian soldiers and civilians. Why do any of that if you're not hoping for a war?

Egypt party condemns Israel’s Sinai attack, anti-Israel protests continue - Bikya Masr : Bikya Masr

Israel boosting troops along Egypt border - Bikya Masr : Bikya Masr
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
The blockade itself is illegal.
That is simply incorrect Alceste. It would be truthful to say that opinions on the matter vary, and leave it at that. How fascinating though, not only are you an expert on Middle Eastern politics, but you are also able to furnish legal opinions. Damn, I think my irony meter just broke.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I'm not trying to justify any sort of violence that isn't done in self defense, but regarding your pictures I'm not sure if arresting people is actually comparable to indoctrinating children with violent ideology and strapping bombs to them. Of course not ALL palestinians exploit their children to such a degree, but it seems to be rather permissible and prevalent.

How do you think IDF soldiers develop the intestinal fortitude to harass, beat, torture and kill Palestinians with a clear conscience, and to stand idly by while Zionist settlers do the same?

Academic claims Israeli school textbooks contain bias | World news | The Observer

We should support the peaceful elements on both sides of the fence. It's ludicrous to insist that one side of a decades-long conflict is always acting in "self defense" while the other is always "attacking", particularly when the "attacker" side's casualties (in both lives and basic human rights) so dramatically outnumbers those of the "defender", as is the case with Israel.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
How do you think IDF soldiers develop the intestinal fortitude to harass, beat, torture and kill Palestinians with a clear conscience, and to stand idly by while Zionist settlers do the same?

Academic claims Israeli school textbooks contain bias | World news | The Observer

We should support the peaceful elements on both sides of the fence. It's ludicrous to insist that one side of a decades-long conflict is always acting in "self defense" while the other is always "attacking", particularly when the "attacker" side's casualties (in both lives and basic human rights) so dramatically outnumbers those of the "defender", as is the case with Israel.

I didn't say Israel was completely innocent and always in the right, only that it appears to be "the lesser of two evils".
 
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