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Israel-Gaza : Air strike kills World Central Kitchen heroes

LadyJane

Member
This is not two armies on a battlefield. Starving children in Gaza are not terrorists. The deliberate crimes against humanity are being committed so that one man and his reckless regime can remain in power. That is the indifference.

There is no excuse for this. A military that brags about the precision of its targets and unwavering American support that sees "no daylight" between the relationship is counter to democracy. That is on the line.

Thankfully the majority of citizens are expressing their dissent. Israeli citizens have been calling for change. And finally (finally) we see some wavering. Finally...we are seeing some daylight.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This is not two armies on a battlefield. Starving children in Gaza are not terrorists. The deliberate crimes against humanity are being committed so that one man and his reckless regime can remain in power. That is the indifference.
I think you're being to generous towards Israel.
It's not just about him staying in power. It appears
to be an agenda to eliminate Palestinians from Gaza,
either by starvation, bombing, or "voluntary emigration".
It's genocide.
There is no excuse for this. A military that brags about the precision of its targets and unwavering American support that sees "no daylight" between the relationship is counter to democracy. That is on the line.
Israel's claims of "precision" are dubious.
It's government has openly said that it prioritizes
destruction over precision. Yet the bombing of
WCK vehicles shows that this useful "accident"
was the result of precision.

Thankfully the majority of citizens are expressing their dissent. Israeli citizens have been calling for change. And finally (finally) we see some wavering. Finally...we are seeing some daylight.
I'm not hearing calls for justice for Palestinians though.
Sure, they dislike their leader, but that doesn't mean
most have any problem with genocide.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Thankfully the majority of citizens are expressing their dissent. Israeli citizens have been calling for change. And finally (finally) we see some wavering. Finally...we are seeing some daylight.

Sadly, there is a marked difference between opposition to Netanyahu (and the likes of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir) and an Israeli peace movement. The latter remains frail.
 

LadyJane

Member
The indifference to human life on display is that of Netanyahoo and the soldiers recruited to commit atrocities with impunity. Israeli citizens who stand against it must use their voices to insist that aid gets to those innocent people of Gaza.

I don't blame them in the same way I don't blame American citizens for the terrorist actions of their military. I expect the same of them and their voices. This is an all hands on deck moment. Enough is Enough.

The genocide of Palestinian people has been going on for nearly two decades. Why else would they have elected a terrorist organization all those years ago? Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Man vs. Man. Man vs. Nature. Spy vs. Spy. Terrorist vs. Terrorist. Pick yer Poison.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
That's a remarkably flexible definition of genocide you have there.
I really object to the misuse of the word "genocide" which trivializes the deliberate and systematic murder of millions of people. What it says to me is that the death/murder of 100000 Jews is equivalent to one Palestinian (or a ratio like that).
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I really object to the misuse of the word "genocide" which trivializes the deliberate and systematic murder of millions of people. What it says to me is that the death/murder of 100000 Jews is equivalent to one Palestinian (or a ratio like that).
That is not the definition of genocide and you know it
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I really object to the misuse of the word "genocide" which trivializes the deliberate and systematic murder of millions of people. What it says to me is that the death/murder of 100000 Jews is equivalent to one Palestinian (or a ratio like that).
So do I. However, according to the 1948 UN definition
Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians.
Denial of this is to enable this.
Your President & Congress you voted for enable this.
As for kill ratios, Israel is far far far ahead of Hamas.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That is not the definition of genocide and you know it
His view appears to be that the Holocaust is the only
true genocide. And it ignores that Jews weren't the
only groups targeted.
His numbers are based upon Israel's propaganda,
denying the number dead & dying, now due mostly
to starvation.
It's odd how many here will tout their good Christian
beliefs, yet support genocide.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
That is not the definition of genocide and you know it
Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

Origin of the Term Genocide​

The word “genocide” did not exist prior to 1944. It is a very specific term coined by a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin (1900–1959) who sought to describe Nazi policies of systematic murder during the Holocaust, including the destruction of European Jews. He formed the word genocide by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing.

 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The genocide of Palestinian people has been going on for nearly two decades. Why else would they have elected a terrorist organization all those years ago?
Determining which is more ignorant, the claim or the question, is a bit of a challenge.
That said:
  • No, genocide has not been going on for nearly two decades.
  • In general, the people of Gaza elected Hamas because Hamas focused on improving social services while the PA was widely viewed as corrupt.
 

LadyJane

Member
Where is the disconnect? The words genocide and apartheid?

This conflict has gone on for decades. And given the chance each would wipe the other off the face of the Earth. The escalation leaves innocent civilians left to suffer needlessly.

I just think one side is far outgunned. Beyond the pale.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I really object to the misuse of the word "genocide" which trivializes the deliberate and systematic murder of millions of people. What it says to me is that the death/murder of 100000 Jews is equivalent to one Palestinian (or a ratio like that).
I am sorry, but this attitude to what qualifies as genocide is wrongheaded and bordering on genocide denial.

By your own logic, the Rwandan genocide should not be called a genocide, because it's death toll was also much smaller to the holocaust. Similarly, the Cambodian genocide. Or literally ALMOST ANY OTHER HISTORICALLY RECOGNISED GENOCIDE:


For reference, here is a list of historically recognised genocides that have a death toll lower than the recent bombings of Gaza (much less the whole of the Palestine/Israel conflict):


By your reasoning, none of these could ever even remotely be considered "genocide" because their death tolls don't match the recent events in Gaza, let alone the holocaust.

Or, hell, why not instead set the standard for calling something "genocide" at the Belgian occupation of the Congo, which resulted in potentially more deaths than the holocaust?

"I really object to the misuse of the word "genocide" which trivializes the deliberate and systemic murder of millions of people. What it says to me is that the death/murder of 2 Congolese people is equivalent to one Jew (or a ratio like that)."

Do you not understand how bad that logic is?

Whether or not something counts as genocide isn't as simple as death toll, it's about the intent and execution. To essentially argue to de-legitimise every genocide other than the holocaust is no different, in my mind, to engaging in a form of historical revisionism tantamount to genocide denial. It is literally claiming that every other genocide doesn't count, because this one specific genocide was an obviously very bad one. I don't accept this logic, and I find it explicitly dismissive to all other genocides throughout history.

What you have to do is demonstrate that the intent and execution of these events is not to ethnically eradicate or displace a group of people. It's not enough to simply point at death tolls and say "See! This number doesn't even closely match THE HOLOCAUST, so we can't use that word to describe it!". That's just an evasion, because it isn't dealing with the INTENT AND EXECUTION that leads people to argue that it counts as genocide. It's just diversionary one-up-manship, and a blatant weaponizing of Jewish history to silence what may be legitimate criticisms of the Israeli state, and may also be an accurate accusation as to the consequences of their actions.

Try harder.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I just heard on NPR that Israel bombed those 3 vehicles
because they saw a suspected terrorist standing near one.
And they mistook a backpack for a rifle. And Israel
claims to have not informed soldiers of WCK's stated
movements.
Those responsible aren't to be prosecuted. But they will
be disciplined.
Even if it were an "accident", this excuse would speak to
how careless & callous Israel is in identifying the enemy,
killing everyone possibly connected with the suspected
enemy, & maiming/killing any civilians with the misfortune
of being in the vicinity.
And this "accident" happened with 3 separate vehicles?
With Israel's claimed precision....that just happened to
be absent in the chain of command?
 

libre

In flight
Staff member
Premium Member
bordering on genocide denial.
IMO, throwing around accusations of 'genocide denial' to those who are condemning Israel's massacres but have disagreements about what constitutes a genocide is shortsighted and nonproductive.

There is a massive difference between minimizing the scale and severity of a set of massacres and whether or not it meets the criteria of genocide in law. The latter is an acceptable area of discussion and I think outrage-tinted sensationalism serves to obfuscate the difference between the two.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
IMO, throwing around accusations of 'genocide denial' to those who are condemning Israel's massacres but have disagreements about what constitutes a genocide is shortsighted and nonproductive.
It's only non-productive because the accusation of a genocide is constantly met with hand-wringing about definitions and dismissal rather engaging with the reasons why people feel it constitutes a genocide.

And it IS explicitly genocide denial to say or suggest that something has to meet the body count of the holocaust to be considered accurately a genocide. That's, by any reasonable definition, a denial of any existing or past genocide that doesn't meet that standard. I didn't say that they were engaging in genocide denial because of "disagreements about what constitutes a genocide", but because their logic explicitly and unambiguously dismisses any claim of genocide that doesn't meet the body count of the holocaust, thus implying that multiple historically recorded genocides cannot be called a "genocide". That's literally just genocide denial.

Once again:
ALL OF THE BELOW GENOCIDES ALL HAVE BODY COUNTS THAT ARE (IN SOME CASES, SIGNIFICANTLY) LOWER THAN THE CURRENT CONFLICT IN GAZA, AND THE LOGIC BEING USED IMPLIES THAT NONE OF THEM COUNT AS GENOCIDES:

There is a massive difference between minimizing the scale and severity of a set of massacres and whether or not it meets the criteria of genocide in law. The latter is an acceptable area of discussion and I think outrage-tinted sensationalism serves to obfuscate the difference between the two.
I agree, which is why it irritates me that people dismiss the accusation of genocide purely based on BODY COUNT, because doing so literally minimizes actual genocides that simply don't meet that scale. It is an insult to the multiple cultures and groups throughout history who have suffered genocides to suggest that what happened to them "doesn't meet the criteria" because not enough of them died.

To me, to call what has been occurring broadly in Israel/Palestine a genocide is less sensationalist and obfuscating than bogging the debate down by determining that it doesn't fit the definition of genocide by some arbitrary standard that dismisses the history of genocide and simultaneously weaponizes Jewish history. The debate should be about WHY people think it's a genocide and not about whether or not it meets some arbitrary criteria.
 
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