Israel-Gaza : "Netanyahu vows no Palestinian state ..."

[InChrist]

You don't understand because you don't see the
fundamental problem going on, ie, Israel's
treatment of Palestinians. Until God's Chosen
end apartheid, end oppression, & grant full
human rights to Muslims, the conflict is
doomed to continue. Israel is its own worst
enemy.


Manifest Destiny is too far afield for this thread.

Yes, you’re right on that; the Manifest Destiny topic.

 

[InChrist]

We can discuss the question in some other thread, but would you mind first explain where the Wikipedia entry is either wrong or misleading?

I don’t think it’s wrong or misleading. I just didn’t think it provided too much detail or information.

 

[Revoltingest]

Don’t you think there’s a possibility that your posts show only concern for Palestinian victimhood & entitlement?

You're trying to be clever. But that doesn't work.
Israel is the far greater power. They've been using that
power to oppress, kill, maim, torture, & steal from
Palestinians, & now to commit genocide....having killed
over 10 times as many as Hamas did, & now planning
to send them out of Gaza into Africa.

The responsibility to end death & destruction lies with
the one doing the lion's share of it, ie, Israel. If it offered
Palestinians justice, then it would find more peaceful
relations.
I say this because I want both Palestine & Israel to exist
with peace & prosperity. You focus on blaming Muslims,
& excusing Jews. Sure, you can find many examples that
support this view, but it ignores the larger picture. Your
approach eschews problem solving, ie, it merely justifies
the status quo. This dooms them all to eternal conflict.

I think that is exactly what Hamas wants and the Palestinians have been used and abused as pawns by their corrupt leaders for years now to gain world sympathy, support, and get people on board with their hatred against Israel.

Israel creates hatred of it by treating so many people
with such deadly brutality. Why? Hatred of Muslims
is endemic in Israel.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don’t think it’s wrong or misleading. I just didn’t think it provided too much detail or information.

Very well. A more detailed (i.e., 18 page) discussion can be found in

Myths and Historiography of the 1948 Palestine War Revisited: The Case of Lydda​

 

[InChrist]

You're trying to be clever. But that doesn't work.
Israel is the far greater power. They've been using that
power to oppress, kill, maim, torture, & steal from
Palestinians, & now to commit genocide....having killed
over 10 times as many as Hamas did, & now planning
to send them out of Gaza into Africa.

The responsibility to end death & destruction lies with
the one doing the lion's share of it, ie, Israel. If it offered
Palestinians justice, then it would find more peaceful
relations.
I say this because I want both Palestine & Israel to exist
with peace & prosperity. You focus on blaming Muslims,
& excusing Jews. Sure, you can find many examples that
support this view, but it ignores the larger picture. Your
approach eschews problem solving, ie, it merely justifies
the status quo. This dooms them all to eternal conflict.


Israel creates hatred of it by treating so many people
with such deadly brutality. Why? Hatred of Muslims
is endemic in Israel.

I’m sincerely not trying to be clever. I am honestly sharing things as I see them and I don’t see it as you do. I really don’t see all the hate, bad behavior or atrocities you lay upon Israel. I’ll say again, as I’ve said before, I don’t naively think Israel is innocent or perfect as a nation, but I don’t understand how you blame them when they have been constantly attacked by those who want their destruction. It reminds me of a man that abuses his partner or wife. Doesn’t matter how much she tries to please him, be careful to avoid irritating him, apologize, make peace, on and on… but the abuse never stops and often increases, too often to death.
How is Israel supposed to offer justice or peace to those who don’t want it, but only want the end of Israel’s existence period?

 

[InChrist]

Very well. A more detailed (i.e., 18 page) discussion can be found in

Myths and Historiography of the 1948 Palestine War Revisited: The Case of Lydda​

Thanks, but it looks like I have to subscribe to read the article.

 

[Revoltingest]

I’m sincerely not trying to be clever. I am honestly sharing things as I see them and I don’t see it as you do. I really don’t see all the hate, bad behavior or atrocities you lay upon Israel. I’ll say again, as I’ve said before, I don’t naively think Israel is innocent or perfect as a nation, but I don’t understand how you blame them when they have been constantly attacked by those who want their destruction. It reminds me of a man that abuses his partner or wife. Doesn’t matter how much she tries to please him, be careful to avoid irritating him, apologize, make peace, on and on… but the abuse never stops and often increases, too often to death.
How is Israel supposed to offer justice or peace to those who don’t want it, but only want the end of Israel’s existence period?

As long as Israel denies justice to Palestinians,
& denies them a country, they can't expect
reciprocity.
You think in terms of blame. I think about
solutions & responsibility. These perspectives
are irreconcilable, & this explains why Israel
has yet to find peace.

 

[InChrist]

As long as Israel denies justice to Palestinians,
& denies them a country, they can't expect
reciprocity.
You think in terms of blame. I think about
solutions & responsibility. These perspectives
are irreconcilable, & this explains why Israel
has yet to find peace.

I am not completely thinking in terms of blame, certainly no more than you with your adamant sole blaming of Israel. I think the solution is for Palestinians, leaders in particular, to give up their position and goal of terminating the country of Israel and show a willingness and agree to live as peaceful neighbors.


Just a bit of review concerning who keeps saying NO to peace…

“In 1947, the United Nations divided the land that the Romans called Palestine and the Jews called Yisrael into two areas. It provided a sliver of land along the Mediterranean and a non-arable desert called the Negev to the Jews, who were a majority in that area, and a much larger arable area to the Arabs. The Jews declared statehood on their land. Instead of declaring statehood on their land, the Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations declared war. The Arabs lost and the Jews captured more land. As a result of the war, there occurred an exchange of populations: Hundreds of thousands of Arabs left or were forced out of Israel, and hundreds of thousands of Jews left or were forced out of Arab countries and Arab Palestine.

Again, in 1967, the surrounding Arab nations threatened to destroy Israel, which preemptively attacked and occupied the West Bank and Gaza, which it immediately offered to return — with some territorial adjustments necessary for security — in exchange for peace and recognition. The U.N. Security Council issued Resolution 242, which called for a return of captured territories in exchange for peace. Israel accepted. The Arab nations and the Palestinians, however, issued their three infamous “no’s” — no peace, no recognition, no negotiation.”

Why does the hard left glorify the Palestinians?

In a world in which massive violations of human rights have, tragically, become the norm, why has the hard left focused on one of the least compelling of those causes?

thehill.com

 

[Laniakea]

I am not completely thinking in terms of blame, certainly no more than you with your adamant sole blaming of Israel. I think the solution is for Palestinians, leaders in particular, to give up their position and goal of terminating the country of Israel and show a willingness and agree to live as peaceful neighbors.

And allow the hostages they took to go home. So far, that seems to be a non-starter, so peace never gets a chance.

 

[InChrist]

And allow the hostages they took to go home. So far, that seems to be a non-starter, so peace never gets a chance.

Certainly, releasing the hostages would be an important step in showing a real desire for change and peace.

 

[Lyndon]

You're spouting a lot of Zionist propaganda, maybe you'd be happier in Israel

 

[Laniakea]

You're spouting a lot of Zionist propaganda, maybe you'd be happier in Israel

Releasing hostages is Zionist propaganda? I'd sure hate to hear the Hamas version.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not completely thinking in terms of blame, certainly no more than you with your adamant sole blaming of Israel. I think the solution is for Palestinians, leaders in particular, to give up their position and goal of terminating the country of Israel and show a willingness and agree to live as peaceful neighbors.

Your position is utterly untenable because it's blind to
70+ years of history, & to the current escalated conflict.

Israel was & is still imprisoning Palestinians interminably
with no trial. It still treats them as legally, culturally, &
scripturally less worthy than Jews. 70+ years of murder,
theft, & many human rights & international law violations
have fostered such violent resistance.
Yet Israelis believe that greatly increasing brutal oppression
will work this time? Just prior to Oct 7, Israel had killed
more Palestinians than any year in the prior decade.

In that environment, why must those who suffer brutal
oppression be the ones who must initiate peace?
Why is it that you give Israel no responsibility to change
their failed ways?
That last question is rhetorical. I observe that religion is
the rotten core of this conflict. Generally, Christians &
Jews see Israel as ordained by God as the sacred land
for his Chosen People. Muslims are a rabid & unreasoned
enemy occupying Jewish land. This lens allows seeing
only Jewish entitlement & suffering. Palestinians are
an incurable enemy...an extension of Arab countries
who did & will threaten Israel's existence.

Christians & Jews who support apartheid & genocide
should be deeply ashamed that their actions oppose
their professed values.

 

[InChrist]

Your position is utterly untenable because it's blind to
70+ years of history, & to the current escalated conflict.

Israel was & is still imprisoning Palestinians interminably
with no trial. It still treats them as legally, culturally, &
scripturally less worthy than Jews. 70+ years of murder,
theft, & many human rights & international law violations
have fostered such violent resistance.
Yet Israelis believe that greatly increasing brutal oppression
will work this time? Just prior to Oct 7, Israel had killed
more Palestinians than any year in the prior decade.

In that environment, why must those who suffer brutal
oppression be the ones who must initiate peace?
Why is it that you give Israel no responsibility to change
their failed ways?
That last question is rhetorical. I observe that religion is
the rotten core of this conflict. Generally, Christians &
Jews see Israel as ordained by God as the sacred land
for his Chosen People. Muslims are a rabid & unreasoned
enemy occupying Jewish land. This lens allows seeing
only Jewish entitlement & suffering. Palestinians are
an incurable enemy...an extension of Arab countries
who did & will threaten Israel's existence.

Christians & Jews who support apartheid & genocide
should be deeply ashamed that their actions oppose
their professed values.

I’m not ashamed because I consider the charges against Israel of apartheid and genocide blatantly false.

Israel has never implemented or participated in any military, political, religious, economic or cultural campaign
intended to destroy the ethnical, racial, and religious structure of the Palestinian people and is prevented both constitutionally and morally from doing so. To engage in ethnic cleansing runs against the moral, religious, and ethical codes of the Jewish people. Over the years, the Palestinian Arab population has substantially increased in Gaza and the West Bank. This contradicts the accusation of genocide.
But I agree peace may be untenable, though for opposite reasons that yours. As long as Hamas or Islamic terrorist leaders continue to use the Palestinian people as pawns and weapons in their attempt to destroy Israel, peace is unlikely. It’s not Israel that has initiated constant attacks with thousands of rockets, missiles, explosives mostly against civilian targets, while using their own citizens as human shields, using civilians and children to dig tunnels, but the Palestinian neighbor.

Sure as a Bible believing Christian I believe God gave the land to Israel. That is not relevant to my argument, though, since I think the factual history shows that it is Israel which has been under continuous attack by its Arab neighbors since 1948.
Neither do I think all Muslims are rabid or unreasonable; you are putting words in my mouth. I do think the Islamic terrorist leaders are responsible for the ongoing cycle of violence, not only toward Israelis, but the terrible constant oppression and violence against their own people.
Those whose goal is the annihilation of Israel are the ones that must take the responsibility and initiative to put aside that goal and mindset, if peace is to be achieved

 

[Lyndon]

you need to go back to school and learn the meaning of genocide and apartheid, not to mention state terrorism

 

[Revoltingest]

I’m not ashamed because I consider the charges against Israel of apartheid and genocide blatantly false.

Israel has never implemented or participated in any military, political, religious, economic or cultural campaign
intended to destroy the ethnical, racial, and religious structure of the Palestinian people and is prevented both constitutionally and morally from doing so. To engage in ethnic cleansing runs against the moral, religious, and ethical codes of the Jewish people. Over the years, the Palestinian Arab population has substantially increased in Gaza and the West Bank. This contradicts the accusation of genocide.
But I agree peace may be untenable, though for opposite reasons that yours. As long as Hamas or Islamic terrorist leaders continue to use the Palestinian people as pawns and weapons in their attempt to destroy Israel, peace is unlikely. It’s not Israel that has initiated constant attacks with thousands of rockets, missiles, explosives mostly against civilian targets, while using their own citizens as human shields, using civilians and children to dig tunnels, but the Palestinian neighbor.

Sure as a Bible believing Christian I believe God gave the land to Israel. That is not relevant to my argument, though, since I think the factual history shows that it is Israel which has been under continuous attack by its Arab neighbors since 1948.
Neither do I think all Muslims are rabid or unreasonable; you are putting words in my mouth. I do think the Islamic terrorist leaders are responsible for the ongoing cycle of violence, not only toward Israelis, but the terrible constant oppression and violence against their own people.
Those whose goal is the annihilation of Israel are the ones that must take the responsibility and initiative to put aside that goal and mindset, if peace is to be achieved

Your post points to the divisions I see generally,
ie, Christians & Jews support what Israel does
to Palestinians. Non-believers tend to see both
parties as having equal rights, which makes
Israel the violent aggressor.
Religion is the mind killer.

 

[InChrist]

Your post points to the divisions I see generally,
ie, Christians & Jews support what Israel does
to Palestinians. Non-believers tend to see both
parties as having equal rights, which makes
Israel the violent aggressor.
Religion is the mind killer.

Your posts come across as very one-sided. I really don’t see any indication that you think Israel has any rights at all.
What I support is self-defense. Since it has always historically and presently been the Islamic terrorists who have initiated attacks against Israel…they are the violent aggressors, not Israel.

 

[Laniakea]

you need to go back to school and learn the meaning of genocide and apartheid, not to mention state terrorism

you should do the same. This time around, you should pay attention to the fact that a countries #1 priority is National Defense. Small wonder that our current president despises that priority.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your posts come across as very one-sided.

They should.
In a conflict with one powerful side oppressing
the weaker one with deadly brutality over many
decades, I'll sternly criticize the oppressor.

I really don’t see any indication that you think Israel has any rights at all.

Of course you don't see it.
If you admitted to it, your ad hominem argument would evaporate.
I'll give you then benefit of doubt, & chalk it up to selective memory.

I've repeatedly said that both Palestine & Israel should exist.
I've criticized Israel's government for failure to allow civilians
to protect themselves with arms. But it prefers very restrictive
gun control.

What I support is self-defense. Since it has always historically and presently been the Islamic terrorists who have initiated attacks against Israel…they are the violent aggressors, not Israel.

You're not defending self-defense.
You're defending genocide under the pretense of self-defense.

 

[InChrist]

I've repeatedly said that both Palestine & Israel should exist.
I've criticized Israel's government for failure to allow civilians
to protect themselves with arms. But it prefers very restrictive
gun control.

If you think both Palestine and Israel should exist, then why are you so opposed to Israel defending itself against those who want to see Israel destroyed and don’t want it to exist?

I agree about the gun control.