It is tempting to think that utter contempt for the Netanyahu regime translates into enthusiasm for a 2-State solution, but that is far from the case. It's more like hating Donald Trump and embracing Nikki Haley.
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Israel-Gaza : "Netanyahu vows no Palestinian state ..."
- Thread starter Jayhawker Soule
- Start date
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Should we also make a list on how Israel has historically treated the palestinians to criticize those who support the existence of Israel too?
To be frank, it is hard to imagine you or I repudiating Hamas if we lived under its vicious rule, were steeped in its rabid propaganda, and, day in and day out, confronted reasons to hate the Israeli regime.
Yes, it is difficult to understand how a Palestinian State would be possible -- if the solution was clear or linear it would have been resolved decades ago. But if we are to reject both ethnic cleansing and apartheid, evolving a transition to a robust 2-State solution seems imperative.
I've done it.
It's invisible to Zionists.
We cannot, however somebody has to, and currently the only volunteer is Israel. Also I'm not talking about all of Palestine but only ungoverned Gaza. Its one thing to criticize this idea (of bringing in a governor from outside), but its another to not have any ideas.
Maybe S. Africa is a very risky selection, but I am serious about putting a governor in. Right now PM Netanyahu can claim that nobody but Israel will bring order to Gaza. He can say that Gaza is a hellhole, that it is the puppet of terrorist groups, that unless Israel takes over direct control that it will do the same thing (sneak attack) again.
You express hope in your OP that the USA will compel Israel to do something different but don't say how. You need to break up Netanyahu's coalition. To do this take away his scarecrow: Gaza. Fear of Gaza empowers his coalition part of which hungers for land. The UN was supposed to operate as a mitigating force in Gaza, but it failed. Instead it merely passed funds to Hamas weapons programs and gathered statistics about Israeli actions. This gave power to the current coalition in Israel which could claim that Gaza was a threat and would always be a threat.
Fair enough. Particularly given that so many of them literally know no other situation in life.
To a degree it reminds me of Rio de Janeiro and the people who live in the "Favelas", often depending on drug traffic lords for even having a home.
Looks proper on paper. But I find myself increasingly uncertain that it can be made to work even hypothetically without something at least as drastic as a prolonged (decades long) occupation of Gaza first.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
I don't really think it is that complicated. If the world offers frequent significant aid to Palestine (ideally it shouldn't be money, but rather goods and services) on the condition that it doesn't attack other countries and that it holds democratic elections in a certain regularity with an appointed third-party supervising it, we would already see massive improvements.
UN is a popular idea.
The only path appears to be enuf Ameristanians
changing their mind about unconditional support
for Israel's conduct, & thereby causing leaders to
impose conditions on aid to Israel.
That's one view.
Where?
What leads you to believe that hasn't been tried repeatedly?
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Can you kindly bring examples?
IMO only a fool could be certain, but I'm near certain that a "decades long occupation of Gaza first" is simply the Netanyahu/Ben-Gvir/Smotrich plan relabelled.
Seems to me that they are a bit more on the bloodthirsty side, personally.
Although I am just guessing here.
The point of course is that leaders do things the majority disapproves of. I want to hear directly from the majority in an unbiased survey conducted by neutral parties where what people indicate is kept private.
It would have been possible a few decades ago before 1973. Today is a different matter.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That is blatantly false.
I want to agree, although that is probably immaterial now.
But 1948 and 1967 put a huge shadow of doubt over even that, IMO.
To me this is a significant question mark. Who are the Palestinians leadership, such as it may exist in recent years?
What and to which degree establishes their ability to speak on behalf of that group?
What can be done to legitimally fix any flaws or doubts on that matter?
The information that I have is, at best, incomplete.
Maybe what you are suggesting is governance by the UN -- something different than what has gone before? So far the UN has been an observer. The trouble with relying upon the UN is that it has let the Hamas leaders control people with money intended to help citizens, and it has been an accomplice in training the children to become warriors in its schools. I posted a link to a news article about it that was made long before the war started.
Its not the main issue. The main issue is that the UN is not a true representative of the will of the nations. Its like a scout troop focused on merit badges. Its going to push its own agenda in addition to what Israelis or Gazans want or what's best for the region. Far better to get help from a country that has no stake in this game and someone who is not a career politician.