Israel is losing militarily and politically

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was rather hoping that Israel having pursued this course would at the very least get rid of Hamas.

What the IDF is doing now is sowing the seeds of the next generation of Hamas.

 

[Shaul]

Israel is winning. Its progress since October has been great. It is laughable that some think just because it is taking some time that the operation is a failure. Which is silly. Hamas has had years to entrench and has gotten great support from outsiders. Despite that it has been driven back on its heels and faces imminent collapse.

 

[libre]

Because Hamas arose entirely in response to
Israel's many decades of brutal abuse of, murder
of, & robbery of Palestinians.

We are in agreement in this respect.

Remember that Israel has long opposed existence
of a Palestinian state. So Hamas's opposition to
Israel's existence is tit for tat.

You may be interested to read: Tit for Tat: The Troubles.
'Tit for Tat' is simply not a thoughtful or helpful yardstick when it comes to terrorism and national liberation movements.

In my view, positioning Israel as responsible in any way for the Hamas charter is to deny the agency of how the Islamists lead their movement, and would probably hurt the efforts of any would-be reformers in Hamas.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Israel is winning. Its progress since October has been great. It is laughable that some think just because it is taking some time that the operation is a failure. Which is silly. Hamas has had years to entrench and has gotten great support from outsiders. Despite that it has been driven back on its heels and faces imminent collapse.

What does "winning" look like for Israel?

They're certainly killing a lot of people - sometimes even combatants - but does this get them closer to what they would consider a "win"?

At a strategic level, it seems that the IDF's actions are going to result in widespread international recognition of Palestinian sovereignty... which will likely mean that Israeli occupation or blockades of Palestine will be incompatible with normalized relations between Israel and most other nations.

Will this be a "win" for Israel?

 

[Shaul]

What does "winning" look like for Israel?

It looks like the elimination of Hamas.

They're certainly killing a lot of people - sometimes even combatants - but does this get them closer to what they would consider a "win"?

They are doing their utmost to kill Hamas and its fellow travelers. Yes, that is a win.

At a strategic level, it seems that the IDF's actions are going to result in widespread international recognition of Palestinian sovereignty... which will likely mean that Israeli occupation or blockades of Palestine will be incompatible with normalized relations between Israel and most other nations.

Maybe, or maybe not. Furthermore Israel doesn't opposed a final settlement with "Palestinians". But that requires recognition of the State of Israel. Something Hamas refuses to do. This "widespread international recognition of Palestinian sovereignty" is diverse and not any monolith of opinion. Most people, including Israelis, have no problem with the concept nor the ultimate recognition of a Palestinian state. But most oppose the acts of terrorists such as Hamas. Even the many people of Gaza agree that Hamas is the problem.

Will this be a "win" for Israel?

Yes. Which is ultimately what you really don't like. You can't stand the idea that Israel could win.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Israel is winning. Its progress since October has been great. It is laughable that some think just because it is taking some time that the operation is a failure. Which is silly. Hamas has had years to entrench and has gotten great support from outsiders. Despite that it has been driven back on its heels and faces imminent collapse.

Which is justifiable in light that Palestinian militants have always initiated hostilities all the way back to the beginning when the British ceded control of the territory.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Which is justifiable in light that Palestinian militants have always initiated hostilities all the way back to the beginning when the British ceded control of the territory.

You are not going back long enough. And you are not questioning the presense of Jews in the area as such.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It looks like the elimination of Hamas.

Do you think that even killing every person in Gaza would accomplish that goal?

They are doing their utmost to kill Hamas and its fellow travelers. Yes, that is a win.

... while sowing the seeds for the next generation of Hamas or a similar successor.

Do you think the IDF is even killing more combatants than they're creating?

Maybe, or maybe not. Furthermore Israel doesn't opposed a final settlement with "Palestinians".

So far, it's acted like it's vehemently opposed.

But that requires recognition of the State of Israel. Something Hamas refuses to do.

So? Personally, I take it as almost a given that Hamas will have little to no role in the sovereign state that emerges from the current conflict.

The Palestinian Authority does recognize the state of Israel and the PA is in a much better position than Hamas to become the government of a sovereign state of Palestine.

This "widespread international recognition of Palestinian sovereignty" is diverse and not any monolith of opinion.

Sure. Right now, we're seeing a response to a humanitarian crisis. When the crisis is over, the urgency will go away.

Most people, including Israelis, have no problem with the concept nor the ultimate recognition of a Palestinian state.

The issue isn't with acceptance by average Israelis; the issue is with acceptance by the country's leadership.

But most oppose the acts of terrorists such as Hamas. Even the many people of Gaza agree that Hamas is the problem.

And this ends up helling to clear a path to Palestinian statehood. Previously, there were two Palestinian governments with differing views; it would have made any negotiation very difficult.

Now, though... Hamas has lost both its legitimacy and practical ability as a governing power, so this means only one legitimate government remains.

Yes. Which is ultimately what you really don't like. You can't stand the idea that Israel could win.

I want nothing but peace and happiness for Israel and its people. I just want the IDF to stop killing Israel's neighbours and for Israel to get rid of its Apartheid system.

 

[Shaul]

You are not going back long enough. And you are not questioning the presense of Jews in the area as such.

Hebrews and Jews have been living continuously in the land for 4,000 years.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hebrews and Jews have been living continuously in the land for 4,000 years.

Not all of them as for modern day Israel.

 

[Shaul]

Not all of them as for modern day Israel.

That makes no sense. Perhaps you should rephrase it with clarity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hebrews and Jews have been living continuously in the land for 4,000 years.

Israel is in 4th place in the OECD in terms of the share of immigrants in its population, with the foreign-born accounting for 26% of the total population.

Migration

Migration to OECD countries is at record levels, with migrants arriving for diverse reasons – to reunite with their families, to address labour shortages, or to flee conflict. Effective policies are necessary to make the most out of international migration, to help migrants integrate and build...

www.oecd.org

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That makes no sense. Perhaps you should rephrase it with clarity.

Some of them started arriving in the 1800s, 1900s and even today.
Not all present Jews can trace all the way back as their actentors all lived there.

 

[sun rise]

Because Hamas arose entirely in response to
Israel's many decades of brutal abuse of, murder
of, & robbery of Palestinians. Israel created the
conditions for Hamas to exist. It's the source of
conflict, & also the big dog wielding the most
powerful military in the world. So it faces no
existential threat, unlike the Palestinians.

The responsibility & ability to offer peace & justice
belongs to Israel. But I wonder if it's even possible
for Jews to see Muslims as anything but an enemy
of "human animals".

Remember that Israel has long opposed existence
of a Palestinian state. So Hamas's opposition to
Israel's existence is tit for tat.

Both sides have blood on their hands. Ignoring the sordid history of the region is like walking with your eyes closed. And to fix blame for who started it is a fools errand that goes way way way back in history.

 

[sun rise]

Some of them started arriving in the 1800s, 1900s and even today.
Not all present Jews can trace all the way back as their actentors all lived there.

People remember where they used to live. Talk to some Native Americans about the loss of their ancestral lands.

 

[sun rise]

Israel is winning. Its progress since October has been great. It is laughable that some think just because it is taking some time that the operation is a failure. Which is silly. Hamas has had years to entrench and has gotten great support from outsiders. Despite that it has been driven back on its heels and faces imminent collapse.

That ignores Vietnam, Afghanistan and many other places. It also ignores that Israel is creating a new generation of terrorists.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

People remember where they used to live. Talk to some Native Americans about the loss of their ancestral lands.

Yeah, but that would mean that Skåne is Danish and we can throw out the Swedes.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Israel is winning. Its progress since October has been great. It is laughable that some think just because it is taking some time that the operation is a failure. Which is silly. Hamas has had years to entrench and has gotten great support from outsiders. Despite that it has been driven back on its heels and faces imminent collapse.

Israel is winning what? Uncontested power over a mass graveyard? Seems unlikely tbh. There's always room for more graves, and more bodies available to fill them.

 

[dybmh]

I was rather hoping that Israel having pursued this course would at the very least get rid of Hamas.

Hamas = Resistance. Getting rid of Hamas requires generations which are educated in a manner which promotes peace instead of conflict and suicide. What's happening militarily right now is an effort to prevent another Oct. 7th attack. I think that Israel is succeeding in that.

This is a good resource which has done extensive research into the content of the education ( indoctrination ) of Palestinian children. The same organization has studied educational content from Israel and other Arab nations. Palestine is the worst of the worst. Israel is among the best at teaching and promoting peace in their schools.

The Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School Education (IMPACT-se) - LINK

 

[Revoltingest]

You may be interested to read: Tit for Tat: The Troubles.
'Tit for Tat' is simply not a thoughtful or helpful yardstick when it comes to terrorism and national liberation movements.

But it applies when a dubious act
causes a dubious response.

In my view, positioning Israel as responsible in any way for the Hamas charter is to deny the agency of how the Islamists lead their movement, and would probably hurt the efforts of any would-be reformers in Hamas.

In my view, your post demonizes Muslims,
& exculpates Jews for their deadly bigoted
oppression.