Are you trying the false equivalency fallacy out on me?
Ignoring the history of what Jews have done
to Muslims leads to utterly misunderstanding
the conflict & why it endures.
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Israel is losing militarily and politically
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to Muslims leads to utterly misunderstanding
the conflict & why it endures.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, that might be, but as far as I can tell the instuture is Israel and thus could be biased.
And even if true, it is only a part of the problem.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Times "man of the year" should be the hook, line and sinker of Hamas propaganda that naive people around the world have swallowed!There's a legitimate question about what Israel should do. This thread is about what Israel is doing.
Two points - the first military. This is exemplified by this story from an Israeli media outlet, Haaretz. It shows that Hamas is still active in an area Israel supposedly cleared. So what's Israel going to do, keep bombing and sending in troops for the next decade?
Israeli Army Officially Announces Start of Operation in Northern Gaza's Jabalya
Months after the IDF declared that they had defeated Hamas' capabilities in the area, the army said that Hamas had returned to Jabalya, and called on residents to evacuate to Gaza City in advance of renewed combat
The political from a Times of Israel story.
Egypt joins ICJ case against Israel as one official warns Rafah op puts peace at risk
Netanyahu appears not to know the aphorism about holes:
UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza
Yerda
Veteran Member
Let's hope so.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
There's a legitimate question about what Israel should do. This thread is about what Israel is doing.
Two points - the first military. This is exemplified by this story from an Israeli media outlet, Haaretz. It shows that Hamas is still active in an area Israel supposedly cleared. So what's Israel going to do, keep bombing and sending in troops for the next decade?
Israeli Army Officially Announces Start of Operation in Northern Gaza's Jabalya
Months after the IDF declared that they had defeated Hamas' capabilities in the area, the army said that Hamas had returned to Jabalya, and called on residents to evacuate to Gaza City in advance of renewed combat
The political from a Times of Israel story.
Egypt joins ICJ case against Israel as one official warns Rafah op puts peace at risk
Netanyahu appears not to know the aphorism about holes:
The point some are missing is that of about a week or so ago, Israel now has control of all of the entrances, thus supplies of weapons for Hamas are going to further diminish.
And you are ignoring the many counter examples of conflicts that led to greater stability and peace. So you thing the Ukrainians should "give up" too?
The problem also exists in Israel Israeli activists attack Gaza aid convoy, drawing U.S. condemnation and highlighting risk to aid work
Maybe, however Hamas takes over Gaza when Israel withdraws from Gaza, leading to chaos in the territory. If someone (anyone with a shred of decency) takes over in Gaza then that won't happen. This is why I think that the lawsuit is an empty gesture as nobody is offering to govern in Gaza, to insure domestic tranquility. It is left up to Israel. The mistake of withdrawing from Gaza could be repeated though.
The people in Gaza, however, are I think always going to resent an outside force governing. There is a reason Israel withdraws, but that action results in chaos inside that border. This is why some other friendly nation (such as perhaps one of those suing Israel) could step up to take the job. That's an actual solution. The two state solution results, so far, in Hamas.
Hamas is generally seen as a proxy for Iran. Getting rid of Hamas, even if they can accomplish it, will do little to fix Israel's situation.
I suspect the purpose of Hamas was to get the world to turn against Israel. Doesn't really matter if Hamas/Gaza survives. In fact, better for Iran if they don't.
Bingo. Iran is happy to have Israel play "whack-a-mole" with Hamas racking up the death toll and having front-page pictures of destruction turning the world against Israel.
The solution is not to give up. And the solution is not to ignore the long term as Netanyahu is doing. The solution to me involves regional powers who are against Iran and want to see that influence gone from Gaza.
That's one view. It's popular among US politicians
who are determined to maintain hostile relations
with Iran.
Another view is that Hamas is at war with Israel,
& it simply serves Iran's purpose to support Hamas
because it's attacking the country that uses USA
as a tool.
Those who think that either side wears a white hat are wrong. This voice from Israel illustrates that dilemma that many face.
I fear most deeply is not the sadistic terrorism of Yahya Sinwar or the direct missiles of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards. “The worst” I fear is from the actions of my own government. If we leave Israel, and may that day never arrive, it will be because we lost the internal struggle for what Israel is and needs to be.
...
For there is an insidious voice on the rise that incites Israelis against taking part in the Western world, an isolationist streak pushing Israelis against the larger project of liberal democracy and human rights, that threatens to impel the country to turn its back on our closest allies, leaving us to fight with our last breath – alone. It would leave Israel in coalition with only American religious fundamentalists and authoritarians, not with liberal American Jews. It promotes a false Zionism that espouses Kahanism and racism, which brands Israeli leftists as traitors and seeks to rescind civil rights from Israeli Arabs. A voice that is unremorseful when seeing the results of Israel’s attacks on uninvolved residents in Gaza.
...
In bed one night, after we dug a particularly deep pit of despair (the news did most of the work), a clear red line emerged: If Itamar Ben Gvir, the Kahanist race-baiting minister, ever becomes Minister of Defense, we will leave. We will not let our four daughters serve in an IDF under his rule. But if Trump wins, would we move to America? It doesn’t seem any better there for democracy or for Jews. Since that night I’ve been playing this dark mind game when I can’t fall asleep most nights: When is it time to go? If Israel builds settlements on the outskirts of Khan Younis again? If the police turn a blind eye as protestors burn Gaza aid trucks? If the Israeli government no longer cares that its scientists cannot take part in international research grants with their colleagues?
...
So on this Independence Day, the most loyal thing I can do for the State of Israel is admit that there is a red line that, if crossed, would make living here no longer living in Israel. It would have become a different country. And I intend to dedicate my powers in the coming year to making sure we go in the opposite direction: to convincing my cousins and neighbors not to go down the dark isolationist path, to fighting culturally and politically for an Israel that believes in freedom and collaboration as a path to peace, to convincing others, despite all the violence and the hatred, that dignity for Palestinians will lead to dignity for Israelis.
How will we know when it’s time to leave?
It's the taboo question of committed Zionists, but admitting that there's a red line is the most loyal thing I can do as an IsraeliI fear most deeply is not the sadistic terrorism of Yahya Sinwar or the direct missiles of Iran’s Revolutionary Guards. “The worst” I fear is from the actions of my own government. If we leave Israel, and may that day never arrive, it will be because we lost the internal struggle for what Israel is and needs to be.
...
For there is an insidious voice on the rise that incites Israelis against taking part in the Western world, an isolationist streak pushing Israelis against the larger project of liberal democracy and human rights, that threatens to impel the country to turn its back on our closest allies, leaving us to fight with our last breath – alone. It would leave Israel in coalition with only American religious fundamentalists and authoritarians, not with liberal American Jews. It promotes a false Zionism that espouses Kahanism and racism, which brands Israeli leftists as traitors and seeks to rescind civil rights from Israeli Arabs. A voice that is unremorseful when seeing the results of Israel’s attacks on uninvolved residents in Gaza.
...
In bed one night, after we dug a particularly deep pit of despair (the news did most of the work), a clear red line emerged: If Itamar Ben Gvir, the Kahanist race-baiting minister, ever becomes Minister of Defense, we will leave. We will not let our four daughters serve in an IDF under his rule. But if Trump wins, would we move to America? It doesn’t seem any better there for democracy or for Jews. Since that night I’ve been playing this dark mind game when I can’t fall asleep most nights: When is it time to go? If Israel builds settlements on the outskirts of Khan Younis again? If the police turn a blind eye as protestors burn Gaza aid trucks? If the Israeli government no longer cares that its scientists cannot take part in international research grants with their colleagues?
...
So on this Independence Day, the most loyal thing I can do for the State of Israel is admit that there is a red line that, if crossed, would make living here no longer living in Israel. It would have become a different country. And I intend to dedicate my powers in the coming year to making sure we go in the opposite direction: to convincing my cousins and neighbors not to go down the dark isolationist path, to fighting culturally and politically for an Israel that believes in freedom and collaboration as a path to peace, to convincing others, despite all the violence and the hatred, that dignity for Palestinians will lead to dignity for Israelis.
What are the "sides" you mention?
Israel
Hamas
Palestinian civilians
Surely, you don't equate them all?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yup. It's sad to Netanyahu do the same thing that history has shown time and time again to end in failure. He knows what happened in Afghanistan recently, he was around when the Russians tried, I'm sure he knows the history when your country tried.
All Netanyahu is doing is making Palestinians, if not pro-Hamas then in least militantly anti-Israel because the IDF destroyed his home, killed his family, so why shouldn't he at least be fighting back when he gets killed himself? Hamas, and others, will be eager to give him that chance to at least take out one or two of them before his own end.
To say they "feed off this kind of chaos" sounds like
violence is the goal, & that Israel's brutal treatment
merely provides opportunity to be violent.
Instead, it appears to be that Hamas arose in response
to, & in opposition to Israel's human rights violations.
The merchants of hate on both sides.
As opposed to ordinary people who suffer the consequences
In Gaza and Israel, an exhausting cycle of hope and hopelessness
Many distrust both their own leadership and the other side, yet Gazans and hostages’ families remain firm in one belief: Only a cease-fire deal and return of hostages can end the suffering; prolonging the war leads only to more deaths.“The only way to end this is to sit around a negotiating table and [be] creative,” says Daniel Lif****z, whose grandfather Oded Lif****z is the oldest held hostage. “Both sides have to stay there and not think that using muscle will bring a solution, because it hasn’t.”
...
Udi Goren is a photojournalist and activist whose cousin Tal Haimi was killed Oct. 7. He says families are caught between a government that continues to pursue its political interests that “go against our goal of bringing the hostages home” and a cynical “Hamas who could end the war today by releasing the hostages.”
...
“We do not trust anyone or any party,” Ms. Zaqqout says, shoveling muddy sand on their tent site. “I can’t trust the media or spokespeople. Because what is being said on the news is one thing, but what is happening on the ground is something else.”
...
Nimat Abu Jabal and her family had been living in Rafah for four months, and previously Khan Yunis, after they were displaced in late 2023 by fighting in Gaza City.
On the way to central Gaza, limited to one car, she was forced to throw away much of their clothes and few remaining household items. She is tired, wary.
“I wish I had been killed” instead of being uprooted again, Ms. Abu Jamal says. She, like most Gazans, says her family is trapped in a “full cycle of displacement.”
...
I listed 3 major sides.
Which 2 are "both"?
Where does the 3rd fit in?
I ask because many Zionists say that Palestinian
Muslims are the enemy. I don't know if you
include them or conflate them.
Colt
Well-Known Member
There is no genocide, just spineless Hamas sympathizers who parrot the propaganda for consumption by useful idiots.