Israelites were polytheistic

[fallingblood]

Pretty early, as in "by the time of the Judges, at least", i.e., before the advent of Saul. The claim is surprising. Even Smith (who you reference) writes:

​

And your claim is even more surprising given the geopolitical and demographic changes that characterized much of the period covered by 2 Kings.

As for the topic in general, to anyone who has taken the time to study the matter the

Israel was polytheistic (vs) Israel was monotheistic​

counterposition seems more childish than ignorant, and it is certainly ignorant.

In the Early History of God, Smith also makes the claims:
page 47: "...Asherah is poorly attested as a separate Israelite goddess in this period."

page 52: "In some quarters devotion to the goddess may have persisted, but neither biblical information nor inscriptional material unambiguously confirms this historical reconstruction. Rather, the explicit cult of the goddess may not have endured."

page 130: "To summarize the evidence for Asherah as the consort of Yahweh, there is no clear reference to the goddess in the Bible..."

page 132: "...evidence for Asherah as a goddess in Israel during the period of the Judges is minimal."

and page 132: "...it would indicate that the symbol outlived the cult of the goddess who gave her name to it and continued to hold a place in the cult of Yahweh."

So I'm not sure if I'm missing something, or Smith has changed his stance.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In the Early History of God, Smith also makes the claims:
page 47: "...Asherah is poorly attested as a separate Israelite goddess in this period."

page 52: "In some quarters devotion to the goddess may have persisted, but neither biblical information nor inscriptional material unambiguously confirms this historical reconstruction. Rather, the explicit cult of the goddess may not have endured."

page 130: "To summarize the evidence for Asherah as the consort of Yahweh, there is no clear reference to the goddess in the Bible..."

page 132: "...evidence for Asherah as a goddess in Israel during the period of the Judges is minimal."

and page 132: "...it would indicate that the symbol outlived the cult of the goddess who gave her name to it and continued to hold a place in the cult of Yahweh."

So I'm not sure if I'm missing something, or Smith has changed his stance.

I'm away from my books, but let me offer a preliminary response ...

"...Asherah is poorly attested as a separate Israelite goddess in this period."

What is the intent of of the adjective 'separate' in this statement? Are you sure that he is not counterposing Asherah as "separate Israelite goddess" to Asherah as subordinant consort of Yahweh?​

"In some quarters devotion to the goddess may have persisted, but neither biblical information nor inscriptional material unambiguously confirms this historical reconstruction. Rather, the explicit cult of the goddess may not have endured."

Or it may have endured. In any event, few things in Syro-Palestinian archaeology "unambiguously confirm." At issue is whether or not there exists a reasonable inference. I would argue that my previous post quoting Smith confirms that it does.​

"To summarize the evidence for Asherah as the consort of Yahweh, there is no clear reference to the goddess in the Bible..."

If by 'clear' he means 'unambiguous' then see above. If not, then I guess he and I disagree.​

page 132: "...evidence for Asherah as a goddess in Israel during the period of the Judges is minimal."

The evidence to all things Biblical during the time of Judges is minimal. Therefore? At issue is whether or not there was a reemergence of Asherah worship during the time of Samuel and Kings. The little evidence we have suggests yes. You claim no.​

page 132: "...it would indicate that the symbol outlived the cult of the goddess who gave her name to it and continued to hold a place in the cult of Yahweh."

But this suggests little more than that the worship of Asherah as "a separate Israelite goddess" evolved (perhaps under duress) into the worship of Asherah as consort - perhaps in a way not dissimilar that how Mary is worshipped in some Christian circles.​

Finally, I think far too little attention is given to the demographic churning that characterized the period of 2 Kings. What were the characteristics of the population(s) confronted by Josiah? ... in Judah? ... in Samaria? ... in Israel? ... in Gilead? What was their culture? How deep were their cultural roots? How recent their geographic dislocation? And what/who were being worshipped in the arc or cultures running from Egypt in the south, through Babylonia, to Assyria and beyond? I suspect that Israel was the site of a montage of syncretyic religious practices and accommodations.

 

[outhouse]

Israel was polytheistic (vs) Israel was monotheistic
​

counterposition seems more childish than ignorant, and it is certainly ignorant.

again your personal biases stoop you to new levels of rude ignorance.

the OP is about the evolution and timing of polytheism-henotheism-monolatry-monotheism and not always in that order, less monotheism.

The rest of your post I agree.


I just wish it wasnt 20 ignorantly rude worthless post, then 1 good one, constantly out of you. in other forums your knowledge is not all that impressive, and I can see why you dont get a long elsewhere

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

( did someone flush )

 

[outhouse]

One things needs to be noted, Smith is often vague and is not the only game in town. he rarely gives a decent arguement as how he even comes to his conclusions.

the differences from his first edition and then the mistakes corrected in his second are even more vague, one could read both editions and have almost the same idea

from what ive read he is easily taken out of context and I see it in this thread

 

[fallingblood]

I'm away from my books, but let me offer a preliminary response ...
Finally, I think far too little attention is given to the demographic churning that characterized the period of 2 Kings. What were the characteristics of the population(s) confronted by Josiah? ... in Judah? ... in Samaria? ... in Israel? ... in Gilead? What was their culture? How deep were their cultural roots? How recent their geographic dislocation? And what/who were being worshipped in the arc or cultures running from Egypt in the south, through Babylonia, to Assyria and beyond? I suspect that Israel was the site of a montage of syncretyic religious practices and accommodations.

You do raise some very good points. There could have been a reemergence later on with Asherah. However, I think it is more likely that she was later combined with some other goddess. I think Smith talks about this a bit as well, but I can't recall off the top of my head.

The period of 2 Kings is quite different from the time of Judges. But then we would run into the problem of defining what constitutes Judaism. Would the Northern Kingdom still be considered to be practicing Judaism, or do we see something else begin to emerge? Do all of the popular movements at that time really portray what Judaism is (the prophets obviously didn't think so), or does the syncretism of religious practices suggest that we really aren't talking about Judaism, but the people beginning to accept other forms of beliefs?

The period of 2 Kings really (at least from what I have studied, and I will admit that I'm sure you have more background here then I do) seems like a time of chaos. So I don't think it is an accurate description.

That being said, I still am not convinced the Asherah was anything more to them then a cult symbol that was associated with God. I definitely would acknowledge that there was probably a different goddess at that time. But I do believe that at least for Judaism, Asherah had died out.

 

[outhouse]

But I do believe that at least for Judaism, Asherah had died out.

that would be true after 622 BC, but even then for a while she more then likely had a following

in the mid 700's she was big in many other cultures surrounding Israel, no reason to think they were any different being polytheistic at that time

 

[KillerPriest3]

The Israelites are throughout history prone to the gods of the heathen, and a lot of Israelites were generation after generation worshipping the deities in secret, thats why when Jerobom set up the calves in 1Kings 12 the northern kingdom had no problem worshipping them. Regardless the Israelites always knew and recognize that the only living God was their power, but idols caused the Israelites to err. So really the Israelites when in their right mind are MONOTHEISTIC, but are often polytheistic.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That being said, I still am not convinced the Asherah was anything more to them then a cult symbol that was associated with God. I definitely would acknowledge that there was probably a different goddess at that time. But I do believe that at least for Judaism, Asherah had died out.

There was no Judaism. There was, at best, an evolving Yahwism [re]imposed on an increasingly diverse population and, later, a pathetically superficial and biased rendering of the period by the deuteronomist(s).

 

[outhouse]

There was no Judaism. There was, at best, an evolving Yahwism [re]imposed on an increasingly diverse population and, later, a pathetically superficial and biased rendering of the period by the deuteronomist(s).

ding ding ding

we have a winner.



key phrase ignored by the henotheistic crowd

an increasingly diverse population

the ignorance of cultural anthropology has been enormous within this thread :slap:

 

[tumbleweed41]

There was no Judaism. There was, at best, an evolving Yahwism [re]imposed on an increasingly diverse population and, later, a pathetically superficial and biased rendering of the period by the deuteronomist(s).

So, by evolving Yahwism, would you say that that evolution took place through the process of henotheism -> monolatry -> monotheism (not smoothly, but with steps forward and back)
In other words, the religious leaders of certain populations became more and more dedicated to Yahwism over time?

 

[outhouse]

So, by evolving Yahwism, would you say that that evolution took place through the process of henotheism -> monolatry -> monotheism (not smoothly, but with steps forward and back)
In other words, the religious leaders of certain populations became more and more dedicated to Yahwism over time?

posted by j

There was, at best, an evolving Yahwism

key phrase "at best"


yahwism went in cycles very simular to how Karen list in her vid.


in times of war people rallied around Yahweh to save them. In times of peace they reverted back to Baal and Asherah

El was different as they compiled him into Yahweh in certain sects. But even in late writing we still El being primary by some.

 

[fallingblood]

There was no Judaism. There was, at best, an evolving Yahwism [re]imposed on an increasingly diverse population and, later, a pathetically superficial and biased rendering of the period by the deuteronomist(s).

Okay, I never really looked at it like that.

Would you consider Judaism then to always have been monotheistic?

And wouldn't there have been multiple Yahwisms? To me, the differences between the northern and southern kingdoms suggests that their religious practices were basically two different sorts.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Would you consider Judaism then to always have been monotheistic?

I believe that Yahwism probably originated as the radical monolatry of a relatively small groups of 'Hebrews' migrating up from the south and serving as a catalist for the formation of an Israelite federation in the highlands. I do not think we know to what extent there may have been monotheistic streams of Yahwism early on; I suspect it was a later development, but I also seriously doubt that it arose full blown at the time of the Josiah reforms.

And, yes, I would expect a multiple streams of Yahwism much as there were multiple streams of nascent Christianity.

 

[outhouse]

I also seriously doubt that it arose full blown at the time of the Josiah reforms.

Armstrong, Smith, Dever, Finklestein no one really claims this as any different including me.

Josiah was just the catylist that started strict Yahwism, with the events of the Assyrian invasion galvanizing the Yahwist faith previously

after the fall of the temple to Babylonian the galvanization was complete

 

[fallingblood]

I believe that Yahwism probably originated as the radical monolatry of a relatively small groups of 'Hebrews' migrating up from the south and serving as a catalist for the formation of an Israelite federation in the highlands. I do not think we know to what extent there may have been monotheistic streams of Yahwism early on; I suspect it was a later development, but I also seriously doubt that it arose full blown at the time of the Josiah reforms.

And, yes, I would expect a multiple streams of Yahwism much as there were multiple streams of nascent Christianity.

Okay. Can you suggest some further reading on this subject? This will be one of the larger focuses of my Master's (if I get accepted into the program I want, which I'm sure I will) and I would like to get a little ahead.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What have you read to date?

 

[fallingblood]

What have you read to date?

This probably won't be a comprehensive list as I can't seem to find some of my books but it will be most of them.

The Early History of God by Mark Smith
Ancient Judaism and Christian Origins by George Nickelsburg
Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times by Redford
Who Were the Israelites and Where Did they Come From? by Dever
The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein (I have another one of his works (a newer one, but I just can't find it).
A History of Israel by John Bright
For a Later Generation (a compilation of essays, some of which deal with this subject).

I have already read a variety of introductions to the the OT which also deal, to a point, with ancient Israel. These were for various classes.

I have also worked through Israel's Ethnogenesis: Settlement, Interaction, Expansion, And Resistance (Approaches to Anthropological​ Archaeology), but since it is quite expensive, have not bought it and gone through it thoroughly.

I have also read dozens of articles (from peer-reviewed journals) on the subject.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You might want to look into Smith's "The Origins of Biblical Monotheism" and the more recent "God in Translation: Deities in Cross-Cultural Discourse in the Biblical World".

On my list of books to purchase is "Religious Diversity in Ancient Israel and Judah" by John Burton but, sadly, it's a long list ...

 

[paarsurrey]

I think It is a wrong concept that Abraham is the founder of Judaism, and he founded the religion in present day Israel about 4000 years ago.

The name Israel suggests that Jacob was the founder.

I think it is not off-topic