tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Thank you. I have read "A History of God", and also found it lacking.
And thanks to you and outhouse, I will be looking into Mark Smith.
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Israelites were polytheistic
- Thread starter outhouse
- Start date
Thank you. I have read "A History of God", and also found it lacking.
And thanks to you and outhouse, I will be looking into Mark Smith.
outhouse
Atheistically
ahem
you missing #39
- ^ Robert Karl Gnuse, "No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel" (Sheffield Academic Press, 1997)
if you have a problem with modernscholarships, one could try and refute what is stated
its much better then saying I dont buy it and then silence, atleast this is why I see it this way, is a start.
the divine council exists in mythology, you cannot refute it.
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fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
When you do, just make sure you get the newest edition. The reason being that he has really updated his work. For instance, with the Early History of God, he has added quite a bit of new information in regards to various ideas, especially with Asherah.
PMderry
The Leprechaun
No problemo.I will look for those notes from my class tonight. I remember discussing this very topic.
outhouse
Atheistically
I will look for those notes from my class tonight. I remember discussing this very topic.
thanks
more i can add to the ole bean is better
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
I am not refuting the "Divine Council". I am doubting that Yahweh was considered a son of El.
All scholarship I have researched thus far has Yahweh as an outsider to the original Canaanite pantheon.
Egyptian records, Tell-Al-Amarna letters and the Torah tell us many names of the Canaanite deities. Abi, Ammi, Ahi, Ahera, Ninib, El, Baal, Baalat, Hadad, etc, are all used as compounds of various Canaanite deities. But Yah or Yahweh is found in none of these. Nor can we find any traditions associated with Canaanite deities in Yahweh worship.
Judges 5:4
Yahweh, when you went forth out of Seir, when you marched out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, the sky also dropped. Yes, the clouds dropped water.
Hebrew tradition has Yahweh entering Canaan with the Hebrews, rather than being among the Canaanites. Yahweh was associated by the Hebrews with Horeb-Sinai, a mountain outside of Canaan, and Yahwehs special dwelling place.
According to Exodus 2:15, Sinai is located in the land of Midian. And Midian, according to the Torah, Assyrian records, and Greek and Arab geographers, is located on the east side of the Gulf of Aqaba, not in Canaan.
Throughout the Torah, Yahweh is at war with the Canaanite gods, defeating them as his people defeated the Canaanites, or absorbing them, as in the association of El, the highest Canaanite god, with Yahweh. Yahweh becoming God Most High (El Elyon).
The Yahwist source (J) of the Documentary Hypothesis of the Torah is the oldest of the four sources. Originating from about 950 BCE. It is most likely that Yahweh was indeed the god of Abraham. Brought with him and his family/tribe from the area of Midian.
This also shows a high tendency towards henotheism and monolotry as early as 950 BCE among the tribe that was to become Israel.
I have. :yes:
outhouse
Atheistically
you believe all that?
dont get to excited about all that, E is within 40-80 years
and both works are so fragmented its not funny, and what existed then we have no real written record of.
these were oral collections that took a long time to collect, and compiled and in a state of constant evolution for 500 years as the Israelite culture changed.
they key word here is at what time period was he considered an outsider, the Canaanite culture went through changes to as the civilization collapse and there was a period with no real governement.
Old scholarships viewed it that way before the Ugarit cuneiform was known about
Displaced Polytheistic Canaanite became Polytheistic Israelites
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Do you recommend? (Found some on the Kindle)
outhouse
Atheistically
no it doesnt, your flat wrong.
you dont have a clue what was written in 950BC or the competing views of the northern tribes who created the E version where yahweh was not the primary deity
J and E do not exist, but are explainations for collections of scripture collected over a long time and compiled and edited with cultural changes
outhouse
Atheistically
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity)
this link will help you understand how not original yawheh is to Israelites as a single one god
The Hebrew/Christian god Yahweh, prior to taking on wholly monotheistic attributes in the 6th century BCE, was a part of the Canaanite pantheon in the pre-Babylonian captivity period. Archeological evidence reveals that during this time period the Israelites were a group of Canaanite people. Yahweh was seen as a war god, and equated with El. Asherah, who was often seen as El's consort, has been described as a consort of Yahweh in numerous inscriptions.[1] The name Yahwi may possibly be found in some male Amorite names.[2] Yahu may be found in a place name.
this link will help you understand how not original yawheh is to Israelites as a single one god
The Hebrew/Christian god Yahweh, prior to taking on wholly monotheistic attributes in the 6th century BCE, was a part of the Canaanite pantheon in the pre-Babylonian captivity period. Archeological evidence reveals that during this time period the Israelites were a group of Canaanite people. Yahweh was seen as a war god, and equated with El. Asherah, who was often seen as El's consort, has been described as a consort of Yahweh in numerous inscriptions.[1] The name Yahwi may possibly be found in some male Amorite names.[2] Yahu may be found in a place name.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
That the Israelites absorbed much from Canaanites is without question. And the Ugarit texts explain much about the conflict between Baal "the Most High" and Yahweh, whom the Israelites consider El Alyon (Most High).
However, I have yet to discover Yahweh, or any contraction thereof, in the Ugarit texts.
Do you have a link to such text?
I've read (and own) both The Early History of God and The Origins of Biblical Monotheism and enjoyed reading each, although I'd recommend first reading Frank Moore Cross. There's also John Day.
The problem here is that Smith is in some ways challenging consensus. Good. But quote-mining Smith for childish pedagogical reasons is as intellectually irresponsible as it is transparent. Grinding an ax in an outhouse is simply bad form ...
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
It seems the main gods of the pantheon mentioned in Ugaritic texts are Shemesh, Yareah, Reshep, Yam, Mot, Dagan, Anat and Baal. Asharah is mentioned as El's consort.
El ruled over this Divine Council, much like the later Deuteronomy and Psalm texts have Yahweh ruling over a Divine Council, host of Heaven, or sons of God.
This again shows the assimilation of El mythology into Yahweh worship, as written in Exodus by (J). It does not prove that Yahweh is a Canaanite god.
In the Ugaritic texts, we see that the pantheon of gods controls the nature of the Earth. The cyclic battle of Baal and Mot controls the seasons. Anat was the goddess of war, and each gods function was a balance of the cosmos.
Yahweh worship, at least from 950 BCE, focused on one god, as a patron, who provided for all his people. Much different than the Canaanite myths.
El ruled over this Divine Council, much like the later Deuteronomy and Psalm texts have Yahweh ruling over a Divine Council, host of Heaven, or sons of God.
This again shows the assimilation of El mythology into Yahweh worship, as written in Exodus by (J). It does not prove that Yahweh is a Canaanite god.
In the Ugaritic texts, we see that the pantheon of gods controls the nature of the Earth. The cyclic battle of Baal and Mot controls the seasons. Anat was the goddess of war, and each gods function was a balance of the cosmos.
Yahweh worship, at least from 950 BCE, focused on one god, as a patron, who provided for all his people. Much different than the Canaanite myths.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Funny, I just added Canaanite Myth and the Hebrew Epic by Cross to my reading list before I read your response.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
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outhouse
Atheistically
outhouse
Atheistically
Now
nothing you have posted or jays one liners
refute the fact the Israelites were polytheistic up until 622 BC in which monotheism was born.
you have also failed to show at which date henotheism or monolotry started.
I have provided many links and statements showing you how polytheism of a pantheon of a family of deities was worshipped up until monotheism.
nothing you have posted or jays one liners
refute the fact the Israelites were polytheistic up until 622 BC in which monotheism was born.
you have also failed to show at which date henotheism or monolotry started.
I have provided many links and statements showing you how polytheism of a pantheon of a family of deities was worshipped up until monotheism.
You da man!Funny, I just added Canaanite Myth and the Hebrew Epic by Cross to my reading list before I read your response.
By the way, did you ever get your evidence about Yahweh being El's son? Certainly such a noble pedigree so insistently echoed from the outhouse would be well documented and easily confirmed.
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