It All Comes Down to Faith

[Kilgore Trout]

Any logical or philosophical argument for god's existence falls short. There is no proof, nor objective evidence, of god's existence. Ultimately, any belief in a deity has to come down to faith, and faith alone.

I've encountered many people, that once you wade through all the standard debates, they admit, or perhaps realize, that the only relevant reason they believe, is because they have faith that a deity exists. I can respect this. I am not a person who relies on faith, nor could, but I understand that we are all built differently, and they can change no more than I could.

I understand that many debate on here out of the enjoyment of debating, or as an intellectual exercise, but, at the end of the day, fully realize that it all comes down to faith, and their belief isn't based on logic, reason, or philosophical arguments.

How many believers here agree that, ultimately, their belief rests on faith? If not, 1) what do attribute your belief to; 2) does faith play any part in your beliefs - how much?

Is there anything more pure/noble/etc. about basing belief only on faith? Is it better to try to formulate other arguments to bolster your faith?

EDIT: In case it isn't clear, for the purposes of this thread, when referring to faith, I'm using the definition "belief in something for which there is no proof", not "trust."

 

[Storm]

How many believers here agree that, ultimately, their belief rests on faith? If not, 1) what do attribute your belief to; 2) does faith play any part in your beliefs - how much?

I wouldn't. I have all the proof of God I need. You could say that I have faith in my perceptions, but that strikes me as dodging the issue.

1) Personal experience.
2) Yes, in the sense of trust, and a great deal.

Is there anything more pure/noble/etc. about basing belief only on faith?

No. I think those who claim there is are simply idealizing themselves.

Is it better to try to formulate other arguments to bolster your faith?

OTOH, if your faith needs bolstering, it's not very strong, imo.

What's better is to believe what makes sense to you, and know why.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I would have to say that reason only gets me so far.
In the end, it comes down to faith.

 

[gzusfrk]

Any logical or philosophical argument for god's existence falls short. There is no proof, nor objective evidence, of god's existence. Ultimately, any belief in a deity has to come down to faith, and faith alone.

I've encountered many people, that once you wade through all the standard debates, they admit, or perhaps realize, that the only relevant reason they believe, is because they have faith that a deity exists. I can respect this. I am not a person who relies on faith, nor could, but I understand that we are all built differently, and they can change no more than I could.

I understand that many debate on here out of the enjoyment of debating, or as an intellectual exercise, but, at the end of the day, fully realize that it all comes down to faith, and their belief isn't based on logic, reason, or philosophical arguments.

How many believers here agree that, ultimately, their belief rests on faith? If not, 1) what do attribute your belief to; 2) does faith play any part in your beliefs - how much?

Is there anything more pure/noble/etc. about basing belief only on faith? Is it better to try to formulate other arguments to bolster your faith?

I feel at least part of it was logic, of course I was looking at the Word so it could of had an affect on me,but I also look at other religions I found that Jesus fit the bill better than the others, let me explain ,imo. Heaven is a holy place no sin or evil can inter heaven, all have sinned, so God made Himself a human linking or relating us to a God, Jesus did not sin so when He died He got to go to heaven so in a since flesh made it to heaven, now through that path you can get to heaven also. no other religion uses this means to get to heaven, some would say, why didnt God just snap His fingers when we die and clean us, I guess it just doesnt work that way,This path made more since to me than any another way,Once the Word started working in me I came more to believe, and I think I have much faith.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

I have faith in God and I just know he/she exists. I cannot prove it now and I never will be able too. But the faith is what tells me God is out there somewhere.

 

[Francis]

Meh, i kinda have proof. however, it takes some faith to believe the proof in and of itself. So, i'd have to say that yes, it basically boils down to faith. Peace!

 

[ChristineES]

I do have proof, but it is only proof to me and not to others. Yes, I need faith for this proof I speak of. Most Christians know that their beliefs are faith based. I can't speak for other religions.

 

[fantome profane]

I wouldn't. I have all the proof of God I need. You could say that I have faith in my perceptions, but that strikes me as dodging the issue.

I do have proof, but it is only proof to me and not to others. Yes, I need faith for this proof I speak of. Most Christians know that their beliefs are faith based. I can't speak for other religions.

You both make a good point. We cannot rule out the possibility that some proof or evidence does exist that cannot be shared. Not all evidence is objectively testable and repeatable, these the elements that we require for scientific evidence, but not all evidence needs to be scientific.

But it also need to be said that any evidence that you cannot or will not share is evidence that we do not need to consider.

 

[dogsgod]

Faith is a euphemism for prejudice, there is no virtue in it.

 

[Storm]

Um, no... it's not.

 

[ChristineES]

Faith is a euphemism for prejudice, there is no virtue in it.

It isn't, and I don't see how you can see that. Maybe you can explain a bit.

 

[cottage]

Faith is a euphemism for prejudice, there is no virtue in it.

I'm sort of inclined to agree (with the prejudice part).

For those with faith (belief in, as opposed to belief that) there is supposedly no doubt. Nobody of faith says I believe there might be a God. Of course doubt there may be, but any admission is internalised and fleeting. (If it amounted to more than a momentary experience and became a regular and questioning occurence, then the faith would be misplaced.)

Meanwhile, regardless of these doubts (and it is my view that all believers have them), the supposed veracity of the faith (or experience) continues to be declared. Now I've not seen any argument or any doctrine, or heard of any experience, that leads me to conclude that there is a supernatural entity worthy of belief as faith. But I don't hold to that view dogmatically, for it cannot be known that 'there is no God'. But where does the prejudiced view that 'there is no God' is false find it inception? So, yes, faith is prejudiced by definition.

 

[MoonWater]

I'm sort of inclined to agree (with the prejudice part).

For those with faith (belief in, as opposed to belief that) there is supposedly no doubt. Nobody of faith says I believe there might be a God. Of course doubt there may be, but any admission is internalised and fleeting. (If it amounted to more than a momentary experience and became a regular and questioning occurence, then the faith would be misplaced.)

Meanwhile, regardless of these doubts (and it is my view that all believers have them), the supposed veracity of the faith (or experience) continues to be declared. Now I've not seen any argument or any doctrine, or heard of any experience, that leads me to conclude that there is a supernatural entity worthy of belief as faith. But I don't hold to that view dogmatically, for it cannot be known that 'there is no God'. But where does the prejudiced view that 'there is no God' is false find it inception? So, yes, faith is prejudiced by definition.

Faith-

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief, trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

hmm... nothing about prejudice there far as I can tell.

Prejudice

1. 1. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
   2. A preconceived preference or idea.
2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

tr.v. prej·u·diced, prej·u·dic·ing, prej·u·dic·es

1. To cause (someone) to judge prematurely and irrationally. See Synonyms at bias.
2. To affect injuriously or detrimentally by a judgment or an act.

Nothing about faith there as far as I can tell.

Honestly cottage I don't see how you managed to draw the connection to prejudice in your post. It seems as though you just threw the word in there randomly without connecting it back to what you had said. I'm not seeing the relationship.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

I'm sort of inclined to agree (with the prejudice part).


. . .

Meanwhile, regardless of these doubts (and it is my view that all believers have them), the supposed veracity of the faith (or experience) continues to be declared. Now I've not seen any argument or any doctrine, or heard of any experience, that leads me to conclude that there is a supernatural entity worthy of belief as faith. But I don't hold to that view dogmatically, for it cannot be known that 'there is no God'. But where does the prejudiced view that 'there is no God' is false find it inception? So, yes, faith is prejudiced by definition.

My underline is the first seriously off the mark thing of yours I have read. They most certainly do believe it w/o doubt, w/o reservation, w/o question and w/o concern for possible error.

No argument no evidence no logic nothing known to Man will alter so much as a comma. And when forced to chose they will literally abandon their children rather than their faith.

And yes it is prejudice as define as the predisposition to adopt an unresonsble position or belief.

 

[Storm]

Thanks for lumping us all together, that never fails. :sarcastic

 

[Azakel]

Thanks for lumping us all together, that never fails. :sarcastic

And it's not too surprising that they do lump us other together. They're the type of Atheists that make other believe that all Atheist are like this(which we know isn't true). Sad really.

 

[Willamena]

Any logical or philosophical argument for god's existence falls short. There is no proof, nor objective evidence, of god's existence. Ultimately, any belief in a deity has to come down to faith, and faith alone.

I've encountered many people, that once you wade through all the standard debates, they admit, or perhaps realize, that the only relevant reason they believe, is because they have faith that a deity exists. I can respect this. I am not a person who relies on faith, nor could, but I understand that we are all built differently, and they can change no more than I could.

I understand that many debate on here out of the enjoyment of debating, or as an intellectual exercise, but, at the end of the day, fully realize that it all comes down to faith, and their belief isn't based on logic, reason, or philosophical arguments.

How many believers here agree that, ultimately, their belief rests on faith? If not, 1) what do attribute your belief to; 2) does faith play any part in your beliefs - how much?

Is there anything more pure/noble/etc. about basing belief only on faith? Is it better to try to formulate other arguments to bolster your faith?

EDIT: In case it isn't clear, for the purposes of this thread, when referring to faith, I'm using the definition "belief in something for which there is no proof", not "trust."

Do you believe in reality?

 

[Willamena]

For those with faith (belief in, as opposed to belief that) there is supposedly no doubt.

What is the difference? For people who believe that (the sun will rise) what is the distinction to be made?

 

[Quagmire]

I'm sort of inclined to agree (with the prejudice part).

For those with faith (belief in, as opposed to belief that) there is supposedly no doubt.

Where is that supposition coming from?

Nobody of faith says I believe there might be a God.

So agnosticism is a myth?

Of course doubt there may be, but any admission is internalised and fleeting. (If it amounted to more than a momentary experience and became a regular and questioning occurence, then the faith would be misplaced.)

Don't know which unsubstantiated, subjective assumption in that paragraph to address first.

Meanwhile, regardless of these doubts (and it is my view that all believers have them)

Without doubt, faith would be meaningless.

the supposed veracity of the faith (or experience) continues to be declared.

Apparently, people with direct experience just got flushed down the toilet along with the agnostics.

Just a suggestion; if you have to deny the existence of entire groups of people in order to validate your point, you should probably give your point another go-over.

Now I've not seen any argument or any doctrine, or heard of any experience, that leads me to conclude that there is a supernatural entity worthy of belief as faith. But I don't hold to that view dogmatically, for it cannot be known that 'there is no God'. But where does the prejudiced view that 'there is no God' is false find it inception? So, yes, faith is prejudiced by definition.

You lost me. In what way does this; "But where does the prejudiced view that 'there is no God' is false find it inception?" equal this; " So, yes, faith is prejudiced by definition".

 

[MoonWater]

My underline is the first seriously off the mark thing of yours I have read. They most certainly do believe it w/o doubt, w/o reservation, w/o question and w/o concern for possible error.

No argument no evidence no logic nothing known to Man will alter so much as a comma. And when forced to chose they will literally abandon their children rather than their faith.

And yes it is prejudice as define as the predisposition to adopt an unresonsble position or belief.

Wrong.
:thud:
I most certainly do NOT believe without doubt or reservation or question, etc. I question my faith constantly and am well aware of the enormous possibility that I am wrong. I also know that I am not alone in this. I also never would believe without a doubt and what not because to believe in that manner would be beyond arrogant of me. Just because some religious people are like this doesn't mean all of them are. And I'd be willing to bet the attitude you describe is far rarer than you think it is.

So please stop stereotyping us omar. It really is quite tiresome.