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It is impossible Mohammad (s) and his family (a) historically existed and they did not perform miracles.

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

(1) The Quran and hadiths claim Mohammad (s) and his family (a) performed miracles (1), if they historically existed, and weren't able to perform such things, they would have been refuted and none would believe in them (2) or (3) they would have made tons of excuses for not performing miracles rather than emphasizing on them.

Subject 1: Quran and hadiths claim Mohammad (s) and his family (a) performed miracles (can be and will be proven)

Subject 2: Why they would not have had followers if they did not perform such miracles (I will discuss why) if they didn't perform or made excuses for not performing them.

Subject 3: They didn't make excuses for not performing miracles.

Conclusion: Historical Mohammad (s) and his family (a) is either made up or they are true to their claims of performing miracles.

Subject 4: It's impossible Mohammad (s) and his family (a) didn't exist historically for many reasons (will discuss them).

Putting it all together, this is a pretty solid case for Islam.

To put it in perspective. The main reason Jesus (a) isn't historically accepted is because of miracles. If he was just claiming to be God or something and there were no miracles involved, historically, he would not be something to be doubted.

However, Mohammad (s) should by this standard also be denied historically. The problem is historically he exists. Therefore this is a very solid case.

When put it all together these subjects, it becomes clear Mohammad (s) historically existed and performed miracles. Now comes the thread. I will be trying to elaborate on these subjects, but they are interlinked so will be sort of going about it in a round about way.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Salam

(1) The Quran and hadiths claim Mohammad (s) and his family (a) performed miracles (1)

I don't care about hadiths. They can be made to say anything (like al masjid al aqsa being in Jerusalem).

Please show me where it says Mohamed preformed miracles in the Qur'an. Thanks.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't care about hadiths. They can be made to say anything (like al masjid al aqsa being in Jerusalem).

Please show me where it says Mohamed preformed miracles in the Qur'an. Thanks.
Salam

There are many places. An obvious place is Surah Moon (Qamar).

However, I can do more than that. I can show his family are shown to be ones to perform such signs as well.

In Surah Anbiya (Prophets) this is what it states:

مَا يَأْتِيهِمْ مِنْ ذِكْرٍ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ مُحْدَثٍ إِلَّا اسْتَمَعُوهُ وَهُمْ يَلْعَبُونَ | There does not come to them any new reminder from their Lord but they listen to it as they play around, | Al-Anbiyaa : 2

لَاهِيَةً قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَأَسَرُّوا النَّجْوَى الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا هَلْ هَٰذَا إِلَّا بَشَرٌ مِثْلُكُمْ ۖ أَفَتَأْتُونَ السِّحْرَ وَأَنْتُمْ تُبْصِرُونَ | their hearts set on diversions. The wrongdoers secretly whispered together, [saying], ‘Is this [man] not a human being like yourselves? Will you give in to magic with open eyes?’ | Al-Anbiyaa : 3

Magic means the miracles are a work of sorcery as Moses (a) is shown to be accused of the same.

It continues:

قَالَ رَبِّي يَعْلَمُ الْقَوْلَ فِي السَّمَاءِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ | He said, ‘My Lord knows every word [spoken] in the sky and on the earth, and He is the All-hearing, the All-knowing.’ | Al-Anbiyaa : 4

بَلْ قَالُوا أَضْغَاثُ أَحْلَامٍ بَلِ افْتَرَاهُ بَلْ هُوَ شَاعِرٌ فَلْيَأْتِنَا بِآيَةٍ كَمَا أُرْسِلَ الْأَوَّلُونَ | Rather they said, ‘[They are] muddled dreams!’ ‘Indeed, he has fabricated it!’ ‘Indeed, he is a poet!’ ‘Let him bring us a sign, like those sent to the previous ones.’ | Al-Anbiyaa : 5

This shows they moved the goal posts, that the accusation of sorcery (in verse 21:3) came after they first said let him bring a sign like those sent to previous people.

It continues in this context to say, many towns did the same as them, demands such things, but turn aside when shown, and so the question is will they believe, and it's probably they will act the same:

مَا آمَنَتْ قَبْلَهُمْ مِنْ قَرْيَةٍ أَهْلَكْنَاهَا ۖ أَفَهُمْ يُؤْمِنُونَ | No town that We destroyed before them believed. Will these then have faith? | Al-Anbiyaa : 6

Then in this context, it says:

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۖ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ | And we did not send before you except as men to whom We revealed so/therefore ask the family of the reminder if you do not know. | Al-Anbiyaa : 7

The reminder in Surah Anbiya context is the Quran and in some places in Quran, it refers to living reminder Mohammad (s) such as:

أَعَدَّ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۖ فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ يَا أُولِي الْأَلْبَابِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ قَدْ أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكُمْ ذِكْرًا | Allah has prepared for them a severe punishment. So be wary of Allah, O you who possess intellect and have faith! Allah has already sent down/revealed to you a reminder, | At-Talaaq : 10

رَسُولًا يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ مُبَيِّنَاتٍ لِيُخْرِجَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ ۚ وَمَنْ يُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ وَيَعْمَلْ صَالِحًا يُدْخِلْهُ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۖ قَدْ أَحْسَنَ اللَّهُ لَهُ رِزْقًا |A messenger reciting to you the manifest signs of Allah that He may bring out those who have faith and do righteous deeds from darkness into light. And whoever has faith in Allah and does righteous deeds, He shall admit him into gardens with streams running in them, to remain in them forever. Allah has certainly granted him an excellent provision. | At-Talaaq : 11


The context is showing "Ahlul-Thikr" just like past men sent, can perform such miracles, so go ahead and ask them for such signs if one does not know.

There are many more places of Mohammad (s) such as:

وَأَقْسَمُوا بِاللَّهِ جَهْدَ أَيْمَانِهِمْ لَئِنْ جَاءَتْهُمْ آيَةٌ لَيُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهَا ۚ قُلْ إِنَّمَا الْآيَاتُ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ۖ وَمَا يُشْعِرُكُمْ أَنَّهَا إِذَا جَاءَتْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ | They swear by Allah with solemn oaths that were a sign to come to them they would surely believe in it. Say, ‘These signs are only with Allah,’ and what will bring home to you that they will not believe if they came? | Al-An'aam : 109

وَنُقَلِّبُ أَفْئِدَتَهُمْ وَأَبْصَارَهُمْ كَمَا لَمْ يُؤْمِنُوا بِهِ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَنَذَرُهُمْ فِي طُغْيَانِهِمْ يَعْمَهُونَ | We transform their hearts and their visions as they did not believe in it the first time, and We leave them bewildered in their rebellion. | Al-An'aam : 110

This shows, sending more signs become useless since they reject such signs already.

And continues to show:

وَلَوْ أَنَّنَا نَزَّلْنَا إِلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَائِكَةَ وَكَلَّمَهُمُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَحَشَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ قُبُلًا مَا كَانُوا لِيُؤْمِنُوا إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَجْهَلُونَ | Even if We had sent down angels to them, and the dead had spoken to them, and We had gathered before them all things manifestly, they would [still] not believe unless Allah wished. But most of them are ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 111

Also, in Surah Qamar where moon split is talking, it says this:

وَإِنْ يَرَوْا آيَةً يُعْرِضُوا وَيَقُولُوا سِحْرٌ مُسْتَمِرٌّ | If they see a sign, they turn away, and say, ‘An incessant magic!’ | Al-Qamar : 2

Then gives examples of past nations rejecting such signs as well.

And the accusation is always there:

كَذَٰلِكَ مَا أَتَى الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا قَالُوا سَاحِرٌ أَوْ مَجْنُونٌ | So it was that there did not come any apostle to those who were before them but they said, ‘a sorcerer or possessed | Adh-Dhaariyat : 52

أَتَوَاصَوْا بِهِ ۚ بَلْ هُمْ قَوْمٌ طَاغُونَ | Did they enjoin by this? Rather, they were a rebellious lot. | Adh-Dhaariyat : 53

And so the accusation of Mohammad (s) being a sorcerer or possessed, is all in context of signs. Those in past including Moses (a) was accused as such a long with his brother Aaron (a):

فَلَمَّا جَاءَهُمُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ عِنْدِنَا قَالُوا لَوْلَا أُوتِيَ مِثْلَ مَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ ۚ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفُرُوا بِمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۖ قَالُوا سِحْرَانِ تَظَاهَرَا وَقَالُوا إِنَّا بِكُلٍّ كَافِرُونَ | But when there came to them the truth from Us, they said, ‘Why has he not been given the like of what Moses was given?’ Did they not disbelieve what Moses was given before, and said, ‘Two magicians abetting each other,’ and said, ‘Indeed we disbelieve both of them’? | Al-Qasas : 48

It is saying the by rejecting Mohammad (s) and Ali (a), they are disbelieving in what was given to Moses (a) as well. And this is similar to God's words:

وَلَقَدْ أَرَيْنَاهُ آيَاتِنَا كُلَّهَا فَكَذَّبَ وَأَبَىٰ | Certainly We showed him all Our signs. But he denied [them] and refused [to believe them]. | Taa-Haa : 56

That means all such signs, whether Ibrahim (a) in the fire or different, were all rejected by Pharoah when he rejected Musa (a).

وَجَحَدُوا بِهَا وَاسْتَيْقَنَتْهَا أَنْفُسُهُمْ ظُلْمًا وَعُلُوًّا ۚ فَانْظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُفْسِدِينَ | The denied by it though their souls were certain unjustly and arrogantly so observe how the fate of the agents of corruption was! | An-Naml : 14

And such verses are not simply about the past per Quran, but rather:

وَلَقَدْ أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكُمْ آيَاتٍ مُبَيِّنَاتٍ وَمَثَلًا مِنَ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ وَمَوْعِظَةً لِلْمُتَّقِينَ | Certainly We have sent down to you manifest signs and an example those who passed before you, and an advice for the Godwary. | An-Noor : 34

وَكُلًّا نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ مِنْ أَنْبَاءِ الرُّسُلِ مَا نُثَبِّتُ بِهِ فُؤَادَكَ ۚ وَجَاءَكَ فِي هَٰذِهِ الْحَقُّ وَمَوْعِظَةٌ وَذِكْرَىٰ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ | Whatever We relate to you of the accounts of the Messengers are those by which We strengthen your heart, and there has come to you in this [surah] the truth and an advice and admonition for the faithful. | Hud : 120

And said:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَسْتَحْيِي أَنْ يَضْرِبَ مَثَلًا مَا بَعُوضَةً فَمَا فَوْقَهَا ۚ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ ۖ وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا فَيَقُولُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَٰذَا مَثَلًا ۘ يُضِلُّ بِهِ كَثِيرًا وَيَهْدِي بِهِ كَثِيرًا ۚ وَمَا يُضِلُّ بِهِ إِلَّا الْفَاسِقِينَ | Indeed Allah is not ashamed to draw a parable/example/similitude whether it is that of a gnat or something above it. As for those who have faith, they know it is the truth from their Lord; and as for the faithless, they say, ‘What did Allah mean by this parable/example/similitude?’ Thereby He leads many astray, and thereby He guides many; and He leads no one astray thereby except the transgressors | Al-Baqara : 26

Therefore only transgressors are misguided by such examples in thinking it applies to the past with no warning to the present or future.

Also:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ | And the disbelievers say, ‘Why has not some sign been send down regarding him from his Lord?’ You are only a warner while for every people is a guide. | Ar-Ra'd : 7

This shows there is for every people a guide who can perform such miracles and signs but ultimately it's up to God to open the heart to accept such guidance and this is why it says "You are only a warner" (to such people) "while for every people is a guide".

If Mohammad (s) was a fake Prophet, he would not emphasize on miracles through being such signs in the past, because he would not be able to perform them himself.

But Quran shows a lot of emphasis and a lot of emphasis that Mohammad (s) is being accused of magic or possession due to such signs. Why put himself in that spot and then people test him and he can't perform? Why lie about it or emphasize on the past with such signs?

Really think about it.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It says the moon was split (which, by the way, is not mentioned in any other part of the world). It does NOT say that Mohamed split it.

It's implicit, because it mentions that all such signs are called magic that has been persisting. So it means they accused Mohammad (s) of doing magic.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Salam

(1) The Quran and hadiths claim Mohammad (s) and his family (a) performed miracles (1), if they historically existed, and weren't able to perform such things, they would have been refuted and none would believe in them (2) or (3) they would have made tons of excuses for not performing miracles rather than emphasizing on them.

Subject 1: Quran and hadiths claim Mohammad (s) and his family (a) performed miracles (can be and will be proven)

Subject 2: Why they would not have had followers if they did not perform such miracles (I will discuss why) if they didn't perform or made excuses for not performing them.

Subject 3: They didn't make excuses for not performing miracles.

Conclusion: Historical Mohammad (s) and his family (a) is either made up or they are true to their claims of performing miracles.

Subject 4: It's impossible Mohammad (s) and his family (a) didn't exist historically for many reasons (will discuss them).

Putting it all together, this is a pretty solid case for Islam.
Nope. That is a pretty solid case for people being gullible.

Every religion and many conspiracy theories have components of magical thinking. How many people have "seen" Elvis after his death and still believe it? How many people believe that extraterrestrials have visited earth (and abducted people)? And that is in the 21st century. In the first and the 7th century, people didn't have the critical thinking skills and much less the tools to debunk tales of miracles.

People want magic to exist, so they fall for magical stories, not all of them and not all who believe in magic, believe in the same stories, but when there are enough, it becomes a movement or a religion.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I am obviously not qualified to discuss Islam but you are seemingly not noticing items in the news - where people are quite commonly designated as being dead but who somehow come back to life (many subsequently dying but some surviving) - such that any description of this from the past has to be suspect (as being a miracle). Particularly when their knowledge was vastly inferior than our medical knowledge. Many drugs for example might mimic being dead.

 
Last edited:

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Putting it all together, this is a pretty solid case for Islam.

Only if you think an argument like "people believed it, therefor it is true".


To put it in perspective. The main reason Jesus (a) isn't historically accepted is because of miracles.

This is false. First, only few people, afaik, doubt his historical existence (as a normal human preacher with perhaps a messiah complex).
The reason for doubting his historical existence has nothing to do with the magical claims about him and everything with the lack of historical evidence of the human jesus existing.

The historical case for the human Muhammed is quite different in that respect.

If he was just claiming to be God or something and there were no miracles involved, historically, he would not be something to be doubted.

This is false. See above. Miracles have nothing to do with this. I'll throw you a bone and say that for those who consider the case for a historical jesus to be very weak, the additional claims of magic and miracles certainly doesn't help. But it is NOT the main reason at all.

However, Mohammad (s) should by this standard also be denied historically. The problem is historically he exists. Therefore this is a very solid case.

Just because there is a stronger case for his historical existence, BY NO MEANS makes the claims of miracles any more likely.


When put it all together these subjects, it becomes clear Mohammad (s) historically existed and performed miracles.

False. This is a classic case of false association.
It's like saying that because a Peter Parker exists in Manhattan, therefor he is spiderman.
Each claim falls and stands on his own merits.

Just because there is a good case for a historical Muhammed, by no means makes the magical claims about him believable.
And just because there were people who believed the magical claims, by no means makes them believable.

Many historical figures have magical claims associated with them, many of which were also believed by contemporaries. It doesn't make them true.
You are making a classic argument ad populum.

Now comes the thread. I will be trying to elaborate on these subjects, but they are interlinked so will be sort of going about it in a round about way.
Your OP is filled with fallacies.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nope. That is a pretty solid case for people being gullible.

Every religion and many conspiracy theories have components of magical thinking. How many people have "seen" Elvis after his death and still believe it? How many people believe that extraterrestrials have visited earth (and abducted people)? And that is in the 21st century. In the first and the 7th century, people didn't have the critical thinking skills and much less the tools to debunk tales of miracles.

People want magic to exist, so they fall for magical stories, not all of them and not all who believe in magic, believe in the same stories, but when there are enough, it becomes a movement or a religion.
What you said can only make sense if Quran was sourced from other than Mohammad (s). If Quran came after Mohammad (s) or something like that.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
What you said can only make sense if Quran was sourced from other than Mohammad (s). If Quran came after Mohammad (s) or something like that.
Why?

I know next to nothing about Islam or Mohammed, but I know a con-man when I see him. Joseph Smith claimed to have performed "miracles" and people believed him. Today, Mormonism has over 16 million followers. What's the difference?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why?

I know next to nothing about Islam or Mohammed, but I know a con-man when I see him. Joseph Smith claimed to have performed "miracles" and people believed him. Today, Mormonism has over 16 million followers. What's the difference?
I searched online, and this is what I found about Mormonism and claim to miracles:

President Brigham Young explained, “Miracles, or these extraordinary manifestations of the power of God, are not for the unbeliever; they are to console the Saints, and to strengthen and confirm the faith of those who love, fear, and serve God, and not for outsiders.”

This is different than Quran way of saying signs in form of miracles are meant for outsiders to witness as well.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Or they would made excuses for not performing miracles to disbelievers as we do see Mormonism does with it's latter day saints. You did not quote the complete sentence.

If latter day saints emphasized on miracles on and on, and said they perform them to public, and everyone comes, and they can't perform them, what would happen? They would be a laughing stock.

So they have to make an intellectual excuse for not performing miracles in public. The same is true of the Bahai Faith. They emphasize on a few followers witnessing miracles, but Baha'allah didn't emphasize on miracles as a proof in public and people weren't calling him a sorcerer for constant miracles as the Quran claims for Mohammad (s).
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Salam

(1) The Quran and hadiths claim Mohammad (s) and his family (a) performed miracles (1), if they historically existed, and weren't able to perform such things, they would have been refuted and none would believe in them (2) or (3) they would have made tons of excuses for not performing miracles rather than emphasizing on them.

Subject 1: Quran and hadiths claim Mohammad (s) and his family (a) performed miracles (can be and will be proven)

Subject 2: Why they would not have had followers if they did not perform such miracles (I will discuss why) if they didn't perform or made excuses for not performing them.

Subject 3: They didn't make excuses for not performing miracles.

Conclusion: Historical Mohammad (s) and his family (a) is either made up or they are true to their claims of performing miracles.

Subject 4: It's impossible Mohammad (s) and his family (a) didn't exist historically for many reasons (will discuss them).

Putting it all together, this is a pretty solid case for Islam.

To put it in perspective. The main reason Jesus (a) isn't historically accepted is because of miracles. If he was just claiming to be God or something and there were no miracles involved, historically, he would not be something to be doubted.

However, Mohammad (s) should by this standard also be denied historically. The problem is historically he exists. Therefore this is a very solid case.

When put it all together these subjects, it becomes clear Mohammad (s) historically existed and performed miracles. Now comes the thread. I will be trying to elaborate on these subjects, but they are interlinked so will be sort of going about it in a round about way.
I don't see how the historical existence of Mohammad could be doubted, and it should be clear enough that his family was no less real.

But it is not at all unlikely that they would have a reputation for performing miracles despite lacking that ability.

Plenty of people have similar reputations even today.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't see how the historical existence of Mohammad could be doubted, and it should be clear enough that his family was no less real.

But it is not at all unlikely that they would have a reputation for performing miracles despite lacking that ability.

Plenty of people have similar reputations even today.
Today? Can you give me a reputation of a person today who says he will perform miracles in public and people believe he is performing them, his supporters believe it's power from God while his opponents believe it's magic acquired or inherited?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Today? Can you give me a reputation of a person today who says he will perform miracles in public and people believe he is performing them, his supporters believe it's power from God while his opponents believe it's magic acquired or inherited?
I don't know about the opponents part - I don't think it translates very well to many or most communities, and I sincerely don't understand why you are including it - but sure, there are many claimants to miracle performing even today.

The Vatican literally has a bureaucratic office to investigate such claims. A very active one, despite limiting itself to investigations of people associated to Roman Catholicism (which is to say, about one fifth of the world's population).

There are plenty of spiritist mediums here in Brazil who have nurtured such reputations and explain them as intercession from benign spirits of the deceased. One of them, John of God, was exposed as a sexual molester a while ago. It made the news worldwide.


Sathya Sai Baba died in 2011, but he was very much known for claims of miracle performing.

Of course, you will have a hard time finding those claims in Muslim communities. They would be very herectical against Islam, and that can be dangerous.
 
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