It Is Now Legitimate To Question Jesus's Historicity

[Colt]

Trying to think of other examples of common Jewish men who left their religion to follow a man who never existed leading to their own persecution and death?

 

[Augustus]

That would actually seem to be the case.

The human default state is unity? And you claim to be a proponent of science and reason rather than emotionally pleasing fairy tales?

You actually believe that humans evolved to live as one united happy family until they invented things like religion that divided us and made us nasty?

We are animals that evolved living in small groups and developed numerous cognitive functions to unite us with this group and against others. We see the same thing in other primates. Funnily enough they are not united despite having no religion, in fact they are far less united than humans.

To enable us to build larger coalitions we created bonds of fictive kinship that allows us to form bonds above the level possible by direct personal relationships. These help expand the in group and encourage prosocial behaviours.

Our innate empathy and altruism promote unity but do not create division. As you mentioned earlier, it is when some other element comes to play, like territory, resources, ideology, etc, that conflict arises.

Some other element such as living in the environment we actually evolved in rather than a magical fantasy utopia?

So if humans had evolved completely differently so they didn't need food and resources for survival and wellbeing; didn't have any need to reproduce or compete for mates or status; didn't feel the need for safety and security; didn't evolve with a propensity for violence to enhance our interests; didn't come into contact with strangers with unknown intentions, etc. then we would live as one happy family

Empathy certainly creates divisions anyway, at least that's what the science seems to suggest. Empathy for the in-group creates hostility towards an out group member perceived as threatening and there are always out groups.

See for example: Does Empathy Have A Dark Side?.

Someone as invested in emotionally comforting fantasies is unlikely to be persuaded by any amount of scientific evidence though You seem to want to give Young Earth Creationists a run for their money

 

[Colt]

Sure it was, it was real magic, trust me.

Which is the trick, the double chamber vase or the man at the wedding in Cana that didn't exist?

 

[lukethethird]

Which is the trick, the double chamber vase or the man at the wedding in Cana that didn't exist?

Take your pick.

 

[Colt]

Jesus Heals a Blind Man
46 Then they came to the town of Jericho. When Jesus left there with his followers, a large crowd was with them. A blind man named Bartimaeus (meaning “son of Timaeus”) was sitting by the road. He was always begging for money. 47 He heard that Jesus from Nazareth was walking by. So he began shouting, “Jesus, Son of David, please help me!”

48 Many people criticized the blind man and told him to be quiet. But he shouted more and more, “Son of David, please help me!”

49 Jesus stopped and said, “Tell him to come here.”

So they called the blind man and said, “You can be happy now. Stand up! Jesus is calling you.” 50 The blind man stood up quickly. He left his coat there and went to Jesus.

51 Jesus asked the man, “What do you want me to do for you?”

He answered, “Teacher, I want to see again.”

52 Jesus said, “Go. You are healed because you believed.” Immediately the man was able to see again. He followed Jesus down the road.

Take your pick.

I see, Jesus didn't exist but there were double chamber vases to trick people into thinking water had been turned into wine in case future generations concocted such a miracle. What trick did they use to heal blind men or any of the other miracles performed by Jesus? Raise someone from the dead?

 

[lukethethird]

Trying to think of other examples of common Jewish men who left their religion to follow a man who never existed leading to their own persecution and death?

Jesus Heals a Blind Man
46 Then they came to the town of Jericho. When Jesus left there with his followers, a large crowd was with them. A blind man named Bartimaeus (meaning “son of Timaeus”) was sitting by the road. He was always begging for money. 47 He heard that Jesus from Nazareth was walking by. So he began shouting, “Jesus, Son of David, please help me!”

48 Many people criticized the blind man and told him to be quiet. But he shouted more and more, “Son of David, please help me!”

49 Jesus stopped and said, “Tell him to come here.”

So they called the blind man and said, “You can be happy now. Stand up! Jesus is calling you.” 50 The blind man stood up quickly. He left his coat there and went to Jesus.

51 Jesus asked the man, “What do you want me to do for you?”

He answered, “Teacher, I want to see again.”

52 Jesus said, “Go. You are healed because you believed.” Immediately the man was able to see again. He followed Jesus down the road.

I see, Jesus didn't exist but there were double chamber vases to trick people into thinking water had been turned into wine in case future generations concocted such a miracle. What trick did they use to heal blind men or any of the other miracles performed by Jesus? Raise someone from the dead?

Penmanship comes to mind, after all, humans love to write stories.

 

[Colt]

Penmanship comes to mind, after all, humans love to write stories.

The gospels are testimonies by Jewish converts to the Jesus movement. You may not know any Jews, but they take the God stuff very seriously!

 

[KWED]

Well, you've mastered condescending.

Way too respond to my points bro.

 

[KWED]

The gospels are testimonies by Jewish converts to the Jesus movement. You may not know any Jews, but they take the God stuff very seriously!

So we should assume that any reports by ideologues are necessarily true?
Fair enough.

 

[KWED]

Trying to think of other examples of common Jewish men who left their religion to follow a man who never existed leading to their own persecution and death?

Trying to think of other made-up stories.
Hmm...

 

[KWED]

The human default state is unity?

The human default state appears to be cooperation tempered by opportunist self interest. Do you disagree?

And you claim to be a proponent of science and reason rather than emotionally pleasing fairy tales?

Absolutely.

You actually believe that humans evolved to live as one united happy family until they invented things like religion that divided us and made us nasty?

Ah, the usual straw men of the apologist.

We are animals that evolved living in small groups

Correct.

and developed numerous cognitive functions

Correct

to unite us with this group and against others.

Wrong. Evolution has no aims or goals.

We see the same thing in other primates. Funnily enough they are not united despite having no religion, in fact they are far less united than humans.

Wht? Primate communities absolutely show signs of unity and cooperation.
Please, if you are going to use my time, use it wisely.

Someone as invested in emotionally comforting fantasies is unlikely to be persuaded by any amount of scientific evidence though You seem to want to give Young Earth Creationists a run for their money

[/QUOTE]

 

[KWED]

Jesus Heals a Blind Man
46 Then they came to the town of Jericho. When Jesus left there with his followers, a large crowd was with them. A blind man named Bartimaeus (meaning “son of Timaeus”) was sitting by the road. He was always begging for money. 47 He heard that Jesus from Nazareth was walking by. So he began shouting, “Jesus, Son of David, please help me!”

48 Many people criticized the blind man and told him to be quiet. But he shouted more and more, “Son of David, please help me!”

49 Jesus stopped and said, “Tell him to come here.”

So they called the blind man and said, “You can be happy now. Stand up! Jesus is calling you.” 50 The blind man stood up quickly. He left his coat there and went to Jesus.

51 Jesus asked the man, “What do you want me to do for you?”

He answered, “Teacher, I want to see again.”

52 Jesus said, “Go. You are healed because you believed.” Immediately the man was able to see again. He followed Jesus down the road.

I see, Jesus didn't exist but there were double chamber vases to trick people into thinking water had been turned into wine in case future generations concocted such a miracle. What trick did they use to heal blind men or any of the other miracles performed by Jesus? Raise someone from the dead?

Top tip: If you are tying to prove the veracity of any ancient text, simply quoting that text just makes you look silly.

 

[KWED]

Which is the trick, the double chamber vase or the man at the wedding in Cana that didn't exist?

And this is the thing.
It's like saying to Derren Brown, after he has explained how he tricked you, that it is magic anyway.

 

[lukethethird]

The gospels are testimonies by Jewish converts to the Jesus movement. You may not know any Jews, but they take the God stuff very seriously!

The Bible is a collection of literature, it's a work of literary art, and darn right people take their art seriously.

 

[Colt]

The Bible is a collection of literature, it's a work of literary art, and darn right people take their art seriously.

For art Atheist invest a lot of time in trying to undermine it.

 

[lukethethird]

For art Atheist invest a lot of time in trying to undermine it.

Contraire, It is gratifying to read literature for what it is.

 

[DNB]

Paul started a new religion. Jesus remained a Jew. And where Jesus spoke of following Jewish religious proscriptions, he was talking as a Jew, to other Jews. Jews then and now are not evangelical, and do not believe anyone else needs to become a Jew to find accordance with God. That does not mean Jews do not believe that humans don't need to find an accord with God in their own way. And it was to this ideal that Jesus addressed himself.

Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman explaining to her how a time will come when all people will worship the Father in the spirit, not in one particular location or according to Jewish customs. Her entire household believed in his Messiaship.
Also the Syrophoenician women was commended for her faith, as was the Roman Centurion.
Jesus was aware of the imminent Gentiles allowance into the Kingdom - faith in Christ, not the Law, made people righteous in God's eyes. Jesus started the new religion and taught it to Paul. Paul merely effectuated it, as did the other Apostles as Peter was the first to convert a Gentile.

 

[DNB]

Christmas must be a right laugh chez DNB.

...and it must be extremely decadent and full of debauchery chez KWED.

 

[DNB]

And yet, he was. Go figure!

Go figure, what?

 

[DNB]

So if Jesus had been released instead of Barabbas, there would be no afterlife for Christians?
Phew, that was lucky!

Apparently you have your motorcycle helmet on too tight?