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It Is Now Legitimate To Question Jesus's Historicity

lukethethird

lukethethird

unknown member
PruePhillip said:
Really? 2nd Century? By this time the Catholic Church was up and running. No mention of them.
In fact, no mention of the biggest Jewish event of the 1st Century - the fall of the Temple.
I read the bible rather than books about the bible, and my reading of the end of Acts was that Luke
(or whatever author) was with Paul on his last trip to Rome. It's quite clear in the text. And this same
author quoted Matthew and Mark. This last trip was taken in the mid sixties First Century.
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It's a good idea to read The Bible as well as books about The Bible in order to get other perspectives, if one is interested in the subject. You might want to read about Proto-orthodox Christianity - Wikipedia for reference to the early Catholic Church.
 
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P

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
lukethethird said:
There are competing theories as to what we can know about the authors of The New Testament.
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There sure are, and no-one can agree. Occam Razor test points to the authors being who they say they are.
And there's history too. If I had a letter from someone, say his name is Fred, and I pass this around - it would
most likely be called 'Fred's letter.' We don't know who wrote Hebrews. Generally what the First Century church
believed is the best approach.
Some like to think they can 'date' the Gospels to Jesus mentioning the destruction of the temple in AD70 - but
other authors in the Old Testament spoke of this too - so were THEY written in the Second Century too?
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
DNB said:
Christianity is all about the resurrection, and nothing more. Where there is no hope, there is no faith. His message to be good has no bearing on Salvation, we are saved by grace. No Messiah, then no redemption and no religion, and no faith.
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Christianity was never intended to be a 'religion'. Jesus was a Jew, and remained a Jew. He wasn't trying to start a new religion. He was connecting God with humanity, regardless of man's religion. And the resurrection aspect of his story is the representation of the promise of spiritual resurrection that comes through our union with 'God within'.
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
lukethethird said:
The criterion of embarrassment and a few others are used by biblical scholars, they got nothing else to go on so they invented this. They basically tell you to believe what you are reading as true.

The elephant in the room here is what Ehrman does not say. According to Galatians, Paul has a dispute with James that James could have settled by referring to Jesus, but he doesn't. Nobody said Jesus did exist and this is what he had to say about that when the time called for it. Ehrman doesn't mention that anything written counter to Christian writings were either destroyed or not recopied, left to decay. Second century Celsus was a critic whose writings survive only through the writings of Origen.
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That doesn't really alter the situation ─ there's no decisive datum for or against an historical Jesus, no clincher either way.
 
Sheldon

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Windwalker said:
And he'd be willing to be crucified for that? But then again, how many martyrs do we have that love getting crucified in all their threads they start here? :)
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Or who are happy to believe anyone would "love to be" crucified, without any objective evidence. Especially a deity made flesh, by itself after adopting a ghostly form, and impregnating a female of one species of evolved ape, in order to allow it's son / self, to be tortured to death as blood sacrifice to sate it's own anger, and atone for a slight over some eaten fruit, that it specifically forbade the ape's ancestors to touch, but inexplicably placed directly in their path and harms way. Despite being omniscient and knowing what the outcome would be, it became enraged and cursed these apes, and all their descendants. Thus requiring forgiveness, and to demonstrate the uniqueness of the sacrifice, chose the means of crucifixion, one of the ruling Romans most common methods of execution at that time, used to set an example by its grizzly lasting suffering.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
lukethethird said:
However, I doubt it will have any effect on Christianity.
Or, do you think it will?
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It's a funny thing, Atheists see Prokaryotes having sex in rocks 3.5 billion years ago, but a man who lived 2000 years ago that changed the entire Western world might not have lived at all. Atheists hope that God doesn't exist, so they certainly have to make his son go away!
 
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mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
cOLTER said:
It's a funny thing, Atheists see Prokaryotes having sex in rocks 3.5 billion years ago, but a man who lived 2000 years ago that changed the entire Western world might not have lived at all. Atheists hope that God doesn't exist, so they certainly have to make his son go away!
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I don't hope that God exists. I live my live without a belief in God, but if there is a God, I do hope She is a loving one. But I live without the hope that there is a God and without the hope that there is no God.
I live in the everyday world.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
mikkel_the_dane said:
I don't hope that God exists. I live my live without a belief in God, but if there is a God, I do hope She is a loving one. But I live without the hope that there is a God and without the hope that there is no God.
I live in the everyday world.
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Even people who do believe ignore God. I was in that camp for a while.

"Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them—and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man." UB 1955
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
cOLTER said:
It's a funny thing, Atheists see Prokaryotes having sex in rocks 3.5 billion years ago, but a man who lived 2000 years ago that changed the entire Western world might not have lived at all. Atheists hope that God doesn't exist, so they certainly have to make his son go away!
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Actually it's been political actors using Christianity that has allowed it to spread. A lot of Christian spread came at the cost of indigenous cultures and people. Not exactly a moral duty.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
cOLTER said:
Even people who do believe ignore God. I was in that camp for a while.

"Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them—and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man." UB 1955
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Yeah, but I have surrendered to the religion of global skepticism, so I have found my religion.
 
clara17

clara17

Memorable member
F1fan said:
Right, about the time when secular laws took effect and good, God-fearing, decent Christians couldn't torture a person to death for such questions.
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No God-fearing Christian ever tortured anyone to death for asking such questions.
 
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