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It Is Now Legitimate To Question Jesus's Historicity

Yeah you don't have his book and you didn't read the book. The book on Bayes theorem is an older work. On the Historicity of Jesus covers all evidence from history and completely dismantles the few assumptions that historians use to say they believe in a historical Jesus. No math at all so all those links are completely off point.

No maths? So it's actually you who hasn't read the book? Perhaps you just watched the videos instead and got 'confused'

Yes the other one is older, it's part 1 of 2. Would be strange if he wrote a book underlining why Bayesianism is the correct approach, then didn't use it in part 2 don't you think?

Just one page (p597) will do to prove you wrong but there are plenty more.

upload_2021-12-31_8-7-41.png


Once someone says that they did not read the book and found a critique that also didn't read the book.

:facepalm: See above

I don't know why you have an interest in putting the book down when you know nothing about it

I don't know why you are interested in bigging the book up when you know nothing about it.

Wait, I do actually know... :wink:
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Carrier thought that Jesus existed because the Christ myth theories were so bad. I think it was his students or colleagues that kept asking him if he read The Jesus Puzzle, Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? by Earl Doherty. When he finally read it he did a 180. You can read a review of Earl's book by Carrier on line, the book is a good read if you can get a hold of a copy.
Yes he thought that book had mistakes but was well written and used sources well. But he was asked to apply his PhD to a Jesus historicity study. He was funded and it took 7 years and his book OHJ is the result.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No maths? So it's actually you who hasn't read the book? Perhaps you just watched the videos instead and got 'confused'

Yes the other one is older, it's part 1 of 2. Would be strange if he wrote a book underlining why Bayesianism is the correct approach, then didn't use it in part 2 don't you think?

Just one page (p597) will do to prove you wrong but there are plenty more.

That is chapter 12? He covers it so you don't have to go buy the Bayes book but it isn't really part of the work. The theory explains itself and covers every historical detail.The math is just doing something different, he's using it to put a number on the odds. The theory is simple - the evidence demonstrates it's more likely Jesus was entirely made up. It's not certain but the historical information isn't great and there are other saviors from Hellenized religions nearby who had a similar story in the celestial realm. Later they were euhemerized or the story was set on Earth. That gives precedence. \


I don't know why you are interested in bigging the book up when you know nothing about it.

Wait, I do actually know... :wink:

No you do not. You said it was a re-hashed mythicist theory. The first 500 pages goes into great detain about previous savior demigods, some who died and rose in the celestial realm, how the Ascension of Isaih also has Jesus resurrect in the celestial realm, then covers Paul and the highly mythic nature of the gospels, how they copied Mark, extra-biblical mentions of Jesus and what they meant. It covers all evidence known from that time and uses that to make a judgment. It covers every possible reason why historians think there was a human Jesus and shows they are weak. The Bayes thing just puts a calculation on it for odds. But you don't need that to see the evidence sucks. It's also good for seeing that the religion is a myth regardless of Jesus being a teacher or made up.

It is not a re-hashed mythicist theory at all?

You said you have the book, that is just a page found online? Do you actually have the book?
 
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That is chapter 12? He covers it so you don't have to go buy the Bayes book but it isn't really part of the work. The theory explains itself and covers every historical detail.

It appears throughout and was the USP of his thesis. If you had read the book you would know this and wouldn't have said said it didn't exist and is beyond criticism.

Personally, when you sell your idea on a particular point, it is very much a key part of your thesis.

Now you know it is part of his thesis, what are your thoughts on it?

No you do not. You said it was a re-hashed mythicist theory. The first 500 pages goes into great detain about previous savior demigods, some who died and rose in the celestial realm, how the Ascension of Isaih also has Jesus resurrect in the celestial realm, then covers Paul and the highly mythic nature of the gospels, how they copied Mark, extra-biblical mentions of Jesus and what they meant. It covers all evidence known from that time and uses that to make a judgment. It covers every possible reason why historians think there was a human Jesus and shows they are weak. The Bayes thing just puts a calculation on it for odds. But you don't need that to see the evidence sucks. It's also good for seeing that the religion is a myth regardless of Jesus being a teacher or made up.

The Bayes thing also shows he doesn't really understand Bayes Theory and it illustrates his motivated reasoning.

How weak they are depends on how you view probabilities.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
It's not my theory. Some historians do believe in historicity. The debate in Jesus historicity is historicity vs mythicism. Historicity means there was a man Rabbi who the gospel fiction was based on. Mythicism is that there wasn't even a man.
No historian thinks the gospel stories are anything but myth. The latest peer-reviewed work on the historicity of Jesus gives 3 to 1 in favor of mythicism. It's 700 pg and covers all known evidence.
But Bart Ehrman still leans towards historicity.

What average church members who don't know the actual historical information believe will be just what ever people told them. Probably in church and on apologists sites. All that has been debunked as psuedo-history. There are billions of Hindu and billions in Islam who believe something that is just mythology. It is no different with Christianity.
The followers of Jesus wrote about him, the detractors of Jesus tried to make him go away. That was the motive behind the Jews having the Romans put Jesus to death! And many of those who did know of his existence didn't even believe in him!

There is NO peer reviewed historical material by historians that were living at the times of Jesus and his enemies certainly weren't interested in preserving records of his existence. Not long after Jesus left the Jews were overthrown and Jerusalem sacked as Jesus predicted! We don't have peer reviewed written history for a lot of things!

As imperfect as they are there is enough left in the Gospels to for willing individuals to find Christ. Obviously, you are in the camp of people who wanted Jesus to go away.

"Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those not having seen, yet having believed."

Christ is a presence now in spirit for those who truly desire to know him.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
KWED said:
But surely you acknowledge that "god fearing Christians" have tortured people to death for no good reason.

No. Remove God-fearing and many people labeling themselves Christian have done these things

That is a no true Scotsman fallacy if ever there was one. This rationale that god fearing Christians don't do bad things, is self evidently wrong, but when the crimes are evidenced, you simply create a sub group of Christians who are not really Christians.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It appears throughout and was the USP of his thesis. If you had read the book you would know this and wouldn't have said said it didn't exist and is beyond criticism.

Personally, when you sell your idea on a particular point, it is very much a key part of your thesis.

Now you know it is part of his thesis, what are your thoughts on it?

It wasn't. It is barely mentioned until chapter 12 where he uses it to determine a probability on Jesus existing. If you look on pg 683 you can see it's only mentioned a handful of times until that chapter. The book goes over all of the evidence, older myths, literary styles used in Mark, OT prophecies and non-canonical material. You do not need math to see the evidence sucks in many ways.
Again, in a debate with Canadian Catholic I linked to he sums up everything before he begins. No math.

I don't care about this aspect of the theory. I just care about what the evidence demonstrates. He shows why it's very likely that Jesus was entirely a myth. I don't need a Baysien analysis and no believer is going to take that seriously. Also everyone thinks they are a better mathematical than Carrier (see below)

The Bayes thing also shows he doesn't really understand Bayes Theory and it illustrates his motivated reasoning.

How weak they are depends on how you view probabilities.

I know, internet people everywhere are all better than him at Bayes, it's crazy how everyone is smarter than Dr Carrier.
Write to him, I'm sure he will be thankful for the corrections.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The followers of Jesus wrote about him, the detractors of Jesus tried to make him go away. That was the motive behind the Jews having the Romans put Jesus to death! And many of those who did know of his existence didn't even believe in him!
Mark is an highly educated Greek writer using elements of mythic fiction like ring cycles, triadic inversions, a chisasmus that would never happen in real life and only in fiction and uses verbatim lines from the OT in the crucifiction narrative, re-works Pauls letters to create earthly stories and is 100% a religious myth.
The other gospels are -re-workings of Mark but with different religious/political viewpoints.
Dying/rising savior demigods were already happening in other nearby religions. This and many other additions to Judaism in Christianity can be shown to be from Hellenism.
The Greeks occupied Israel in the Hellenistic era and greatly influenced their theology. These stories are not real.


There is NO peer reviewed historical material by historians that were living at the times of Jesus and his enemies certainly weren't interested in preserving records of his existence. Not long after Jesus left the Jews were overthrown and Jerusalem sacked as Jesus predicted! We don't have peer reviewed written history for a lot of things!

First that is incorrect. Rome did not care about Christianity. During the 2nd century it grew and Gnosticism was the largest movement:
"The Ante-Nicene period saw the rise of a great number of Christian sects, cults and movements with strong unifying characteristics lacking in the apostolic period. "
In the middle of the second century, the Christian communities of Rome, for example, were divided between followers of Marcion, Montanism, and the gnostic teachings of Valentinus.

There were historians and they did record the fact that Christians were around and believed in the Gospels, Josephus and Tacitus mentioned people followed the Gospels. The actual events of Jesus were not reported because those are stories from a myth.



v
As imperfect as they are there is enough left in the Gospels to for willing individuals to find Christ. Obviously, you are in the camp of people who wanted Jesus to go away.

No I don't want anyone to go away. It would be nice if people realized the stories are not real but people want to believe all kinds of myths so whatever.
The evidence is very clear that these stories are not real.

"Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those not having seen, yet having believed."
Krishna says, “Those who are not faithful in this devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of enemies. Therefore they return to the path of birth and death in this material world.”

"..without faith we cannot attain Krishna."

Yes all Gods tell a follower to tell the people that you must have faith. Krishna is not real. No myth is real. Even if we were created we were not created to be fools who follow things that are obviously not true. After honestly looking at the evidence I realized no religion is true. It is not my fault the evidence is extremely clear.

You were probably told at some point that there is actually good reason to believe this story. I can't imagine that someone just said "hey believe this story" and you did.
Those lines were written because there was no evidence even at the time they were written and they needed ways to bring in members. You consider that evidence?? It's good to believe in me without proof, because I say so????

Christ is a presence now in spirit for those who truly desire to know him.
As my ex who was Muslim also used to say about Allah.

And another friend says about Krishna.

"“I am within everyone’s heart and I am giving remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness."

Ancient religions understood psychological manipulation and that people would ask why they should become a member of the religion. Obviously because the actual God or Demigod wasn't really going to show up.
My Hindu friend says she feels a relationship with Lord Krishna and he answers her and helps her. When we think a deity is real we completely can fool ourselves. I've done it myself.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
...When we think a deity is real we completely can fool ourselves. I've done it myself.

That has nothing to do with religion as such.
For 2 atheists, where one is an agnostic and the other is gnostic, one of them is fooling her/him/themselves.
So which one is the really real position?
 
It wasn't. It is barely mentioned until chapter 12 where he uses it to determine a probability on Jesus existing. I

I find it hard to believe you have read the book given he refers to it throughout the book, wrote an entire book explaining why he wanted to use "Bayes' theory" on this issue, and repeats his reasoning in the preface (xii-xiii):


The first step in that process was to assess the methods so far employed on the subject and replace them if faulty. I accomplished that in the previous volume, in which I demonstrated that the most recent method of using 'historicity criteria' in the study of Jesus has been either logically invalid or factually incorrect, and that only arguments structured according to Bayes's Theorem have any chance of being valid and sound. Here I apply that method to the evidence for Jesus and show what results.

Or section 6 chapter 1:

The argument of this book can be summarized as follows. A Bayesian argument requires attending to the question of applicable background knowledge, constructing therefrom a prior probability for all competing hypotheses, and then evaluating the consequent probabilities (the likelihoods) of all the evidence on each hypothesis. In accordance with this method..”

I could go on...

Given he himself is demanding we use Bayesian argumentation to analyse this issue, why should we believe your claims that a) he wasn't using this method and b) his competency in this method and its applicability to this question is irrelevant?

I know, internet people everywhere are all better than him at Bayes, it's crazy how everyone is smarter than Dr Carrier.
Write to him, I'm sure he will be thankful for the corrections.

Written like a true fanboy of Dr Richard Carrier PhD.

How dare all of these scholars and published research scientists think they know more about Bayesian theory and maths than the historian Dr Richard Carrier PhD!

We have a) a Bayesian scholar in a peer-reviewed journal questioned his methodology b) multiple scientists (with better credentials) who question his maths and provide evidence of his errors (even one who says he actually is a mythicist).

Why should any rational sceptic assume Dr Richard Carrier PhD is smarter than these "internet people" because Dr Richard Carrier PhD says he is, and accept his work uncritically?

The book goes over all of the evidence, older myths, literary styles used in Mark, OT prophecies and non-canonical material. You do not need math to see the evidence sucks in many ways.

You also don't need any maths to find a) more likely to be true than b)

a) Most people in history assumed to be real and written about as real in near contemporary sources were real and we know of countless real people who had magical powers assigned to them after death. In a time where there were many purported "messiahs" some apocalyptic preacher was killed and then recast by his followers as the messiah. We know from contemporary apocalyptic cults that when the apocalypse doesn't happen as promised they don't simply say "I was wrong" they rationalise away why it didn't happen and saw his death as a sacrifice that delayed the eschaton. The Gospels are far more likely to be working around a real person as no one would invent such a terrible messiah and then have to jump through hoops to makes him slightly less terrible. Not to mention, (almost) all other gods who Jesus is compared to are not simply "a man with a few magic tricks" who had a large following within a few decades of their purported earthly death, but clearly fantastical figures who live outside of a recent human timeframe.

b) Dr Richard Carrier PhD knows more about Jewish theology than they Jews. More about Mystery Cults than scholars of Mystery cults. More about the New testament than New testament scholars, etc. and all of these scholars are wrong in precisely the way required to meet Dr Richard Carrier PhD's ideological and financial agenda. The outcome is that some space Jesus became historicised and any reference to him having a physical body is actually because they made the space Jesus a body from David's sperm that they kept in a 'cosmic sperm bank' that was later crucified by demons in space. All of this contingent on if we start with a view of mystery religions that isn't really accepted by scholars, then reinterpret OT and NT words in a strange way that isn't really accepted by scholars, then invent some aspect of Jewish theology that isn't really accepted by scholars then we could totally imagine that this fleshy space Jesus from the cosmic sperm bank is the most probable assumption!
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No. Remove God-fearing and many people labeling themselves Christian have done these things
So you are claiming that anyone who tortured anyone to death could not have been a "god fearing Christian". Sounds a lot like a No True Scotsman fallacy.

However, history is full of examples of sadistic monsters who genuinely believed they were doing god's work.
 

clara17

Memorable member
So you are claiming that anyone who tortured anyone to death could not have been a "god fearing Christian". Sounds a lot like a No True Scotsman fallacy.

However, history is full of examples of sadistic monsters who genuinely believed they were doing god's work.

People dont always do the right thing. Doesnt mean the right thing is wrong
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
This one. A lot of people may have claimed they were Christians to co-opt a movement
they couldnt control, and then tortured and killed Christians for 1500 years, but that doesnt
make them Christians. You have to actually read the scripture, not just the propaganda written about it
by its opposition
A bad apple is still an apple.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
You read.

A book written states it is linked advice to old information. Written by humans.

You read it.

You then correlate it is written after the fact to define details of causes.

Science does not occur as change until men.of science choose it.

Basic advice.

So information about life said attack of.

Science said heavens O earth cold clear in space law pressure. O stone. Then it's gases

Pretty basic science.

Science said the sun changed earth.

Basic.

So then scientists say there is no new information about the sun and why earth changed

Said the teaching as a human to other humans.

Wisdom.

Then humans decide to use the advice life gets sacrificed attacked.

Pretty basic wisdom human advised why. No new circumstance. Had no right to invent conversion science.

Basic human advice.

About human behaviour cult activity false groups.

Family is the natural group.

So there is no argument.

What gets argued is did life get sacrificed.

Evidence all humans dying unnaturally. Yes it did

Men of science caused it

We lived first were healthier.
We got attacked we survived.

Life today just surviving the teaching.

Stating grounds stone rock water was keeping life safe leaving from an irradiating dust earth caused by human scientists.

Don't change the holy dust the teaching.

As soon as men did. Stigmata proven again. Blood cell chemical bone changes.

The dusts not changed supported blood health cell chemical health healthy life bones.

Life depended on a non changed dust the teaching.

The updated advice. The church was built. A long time after the event.

Reasoning humans were still irradiated sick after 33AD life stigmata death.

Hence a baby just a human gets born.

The babies life depends on earths ice saviour nuclear stability as did bio animal DNA.

The baby lived died 33 AD. Lots of humans did. Documented seen. Just like stigmata had. Anyone demonstrated its return.

The argument was one special man the reason?

To be advised and taught new advice medical healer? Yes. You always commend the teacher human. Claiming their holy advice worthy of praise.

So you did. A human who was suffering still helping loving and caring teaching.

The church after it was built as a healing resonant building write the advice. Data.

The story was data. Numbers. The story was data...numbers.

Numbers are imposed that proved by science using numbers that science had caused it.

As numbers do not exist by their self.

The radiation mass that science had conjured was by a numbered formula.

Science caused two machines.

One they built by converted earth mass.
The second UFO machine released from earth when they converted earth mass a second time.

Was the human teaching.

No human is any machine.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Because I'm sick of everyone being able to jump on Christianity with impunity and disparage their own heritage, their own culture, their ancestors. It's like, why can't it just be given a break? It's not what it once was. In Europe Christianity as default is gone. It's done. And yet people still feel the need to bash, essentially, 2000 years of their history basically just out of spite. It saddens me. Just let the Christians have their beliefs and leave them alone.
Christianity still imposes itself on non-adherents in all sorts of ways. It isn't just a matter of individuals living their personal beliefs.

Christianity is the only religion I directly fund with my tax dollars. I think it's entirely warranted that I single it out for special criticism. If you don't like that, too bad - my right to speak as I please about Christianity has been bought with good money (and against my will, I should add).

The day that Christianity stops imposing itself on non-adherents, I'll happily stop criticizing it.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Human first

A human says I want power for my countrymen.

No machine even exists in reality.

A human is born in a land status. Fed back my nation advice where I live.

So as no machine has any status whatsoever in science theories men say I want my nation my country to get power. Out of the God state

Ground plus heavens above.

Rome got it delivered as Romans to Rome in Nero era. As no machine owns status as a machine.

So today if you say I want it for my status born place you really meant it.

Then you look at highest UFO phenomena. America is that place. You want it as humanity. As the machine never wanted it.
 
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