It is possible that Jesus sinned.

[nash8]

If we can't put first-century Biblical events into some kind of rough order, with some kind of rough time-range, then those events seem like myth to me -- a story unattached to the physical, historical world.

But I'm criticized and attacked for suggesting that Jesus was probably not historical.

So I'm asking if anyone can line up those events for me in a way which makes sense. For example, if Saul was a young man, in Jerusalem, for the stoning of Stephen, then in what year could that possibly have happened? I sure can't make sense of it. Can you?

1. Jesus crucified 30 - 36 AD.

2. Stephen stoned is early in the Jesus movement, as the apostles were choosing new members to start up churches. 32 -38 AD. Saul is a young man (13 - 18 years old)

3. Paul was a Pharisee, so he most likely could have been a member of the Sanhedrinal council that chose to stone Stephen, and at the end of acts, it says that the killing of Stephen pleased "Saul", so this right here could have been considered persecution of Christians by Paul.

4. But let's say Paul continued persecuting Christians or was not neccesarily a part of this incident with Stephen. he starts persecuting Christians 2 years later. So Stephen starts persecuting Christians between 34 AD - 40 AD at the age of 15 - 20 years old.

It fit's perfectly within Scholarly estimates, and gives Paul a good couple of years to persecute Christians before his conversion.

From my perspective, I think Paul actually met Jesus in the flesh, because he survived his resserurection, so it couldn't have been too far after the crucifixion nor for too long, cuz old Joshua would have been long gone by then.

It is written that a written divorcement could be given to a wife for any reason. Jesus is recorded as saying that the only grounds for divorce was fornication.

So are you saying this in regard to Jesus had bad reasons for promoting divorce according to equal treatment of women, or according to Jewish Law/custom at the time.

Matthew 19 - NIV - Online Bible Study

From my interpretation, Jesus is saying that if you're not ready to commit for life then don't get married. As you said earlier, if a man divorced his wife in Jewish culture at the time, it was basically a death sentence for her, or at the least a life of prostitution.

From my point of view, Jesus was basically telling men not to ruin a woman's life over some B.S. reason. I don't see how that's promoting the wrong reason's for divorce given the context?

"Why have you forsaken me?" is a really whimpy thing to say.

Look up some translations on this, that's probably not what he was saying. There's a lady on the forums that is excellent with translations, or talk to legion, he's pretty afluent in Greek. But from what I remember it was more along the lines of I accept the destiny you bestowed, and I am so strong no pain in life can forsake me.

G-d can do anything. However, why would he want too?

Who says God's a he, that's very masagynistic of you. And along those lines can God make a rock that he can't pick up?

At least our G-D doesn't blatantly contradict himself.

Oh you mean YHVH, doesn't contradict himself.

Yep, the creator of Jesus didn't know the Torah, did he?

Naw, he just said the Torah Law concerning divorce was made because Jewish dudes were dicks when the law was given.

There is one thing you are forgetting. Jesus didn't teach the Trinity. The Bible doesn't actually teach the trinity in either the Tanakh or in the Christian scriptures.

Indeed.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

1. Jesus crucified 30 - 36 AD.

2. Stephen stoned is early in the Jesus movement, as the apostles were choosing new members to start up churches. 32 -38 AD. Saul is a young man (13 - 18 years old)

That doesn't work at all with any timeline I've seen. (Everyone seems to agree that Paul was converted by 35 CE or so.)

I won't discuss it here in this thread, but you're welcome to join the other one.

 

[metis]

"Why have you forsaken me?" is actually a prayer that's found in the Psalms, which ends on a positive note.

 

[metis]

The entire Law was given to Moses at Sinai, according to Exodus, but Moses chose not to provide all the Commandments, all 613 of them, at one time. If one goes back and read Exodus and the giving of the Decalogue, keep reading and you'll see more and more of the Law being put forth by Moses, including the Laws that govern divorce.

BTW, you can access them here: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

 

[CMike]

The entire Law was given to Moses at Sinai, according to Exodus, but Moses chose not to provide all the Commandments, all 613 of them, at one time. If one goes back and read Exodus and the giving of the Decalogue, keep reading and you'll see more and more of the Law being put forth by Moses, including the Laws that govern divorce.

BTW, you can access them here: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

G-D speaks about divorce in the Torah, the five books of Moses.

 

[CMike]

"Why have you forsaken me?" is actually a prayer that's found in the Psalms, which ends on a positive note.

Very true.

Psalm 22 - Psalm 22 - For the director of music. - Bible Gateway


Psalm 22[a]

A psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

 

[metis]

Very true.

Psalm 22 - Psalm 22 - For the director of music. - Bible Gateway


Psalm 22[a]

A psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

Thanks for looking this up as I was in a rush.

Shabbat shalom

 

[sojourner]

There persons are three distinct entities.

That's not what the doctrine says. That's not what we believe.

King David wasn't about to be killed .He was praying to G-D.

Besides the fact that "David" didn't write the Psalms, I suppose it simply couldn't have been possible that Jesus, too, was praying at the time?

Besides why should have jesus been in distress

Because Jesus was fully human.

1+1+=3. You are worshipping three gods.

The Trinity isn't addition.

if G-D wanted to absolve us of all our sins, which makes absolutely no sense, he can do so at any time.

And so God does.

He doesn't have to turn into man than into god than into man than into god. There is no logic behind this

Straw man arguments such as yours here are rarely logical.

And that has what to do with "reconciling humanity?

Yow know... atonement, the Temple sacrifices for sin... that whole thing. It's reconciliatory.

You are contradicting yourself.

No, you're contradicting me by assigning different meanings to what I've written.

1+1+1 is still 3.

The Trinity still isn't mathematics.

 

[sojourner]

G-D allows for divorce. He speaks about the laws of it in the Torah.

Since God didn't write the bible, I don't see how anyone other than the human authors could have spoken about them.

Since G-D directly talks about the rules of divorce how is that interpretation.

God didn't write Talmud, either.

Laws require clarification, not creative interpretation.

Tell that to any decent lawyer and see how far you get...

No law in the Torah has been added to nor subtracted from by jews.

Jesus was a Jew -- a rabbi, in fact. Therefore, Jesus neither added to, nor subtracted from, Torah.

You're grasping at straws. Rather badly, as it turns out.

 

[sojourner]

Really?

What was added or subtracted?

Precisely my point.

 

[sojourner]

Clearly jesus was not a god known to the jews.

We've never asserted that he was. What we do assert is that Jesus is God.

 

[CMike]

That's not what the doctrine says. That's not what we believe.

It may not be what you believe, but it is what you are doing.

If you are giving anyone else but the one true G-D divine power you are worshipping multiple gods.

Besides the fact that "David" didn't write the Psalms, I suppose it simply couldn't have been possible that Jesus, too, was praying at the time?

Of course not, it was jesus who wrote psalms, at the time he was transposed to become the musical conductor of the levites, and changed back again

You know the first line says "Psalm Of David", right?

In fairness David didn't write all the psalms, some were done by the person who was the musical conductor of the Levites at the time. However, King David, did write Psalms 22.

Psalms 22 is much more than why have you forsaken me. As Metis pointed out and I pasted it ends on very positive note.

This is how a true jewish martyr died.

Rav Kook on Va'Etchanan: With All Your Soul

Notice no "why have you forsaken me?" at his death.

Besides he was supposedly sacrificing himself, therefore, he should have been happy to be executed. That is what he wanted, right?

If he didn't want it then he wouldn't have complained to G-D why have you forsaken me?

How many ways do you want it?

Because Jesus was fully human.

If he was human, he wasn't G-D.

Yow know... atonement, the Temple sacrifices for sin... that whole thing. It's reconciliatory.

Temple sacrifices were for a whole variety of reasons. They were for festivities, holidays, and when good things happened as well. They didn't "reconcile humanity". It was just one portion in getting forgiveness when it was for sin.

The most important method is to repent for your boo boo and do your best for it not to happen again, as G-D told Cain.

 

[CMike]

We've never asserted that he was. What we do assert is that Jesus is God.

Therefore, he falls under Deuterenomy 13.

 

[metis]

If one is ignoring what's written in Torah, then how do they know anything about Jesus vis-a-vis being a "messiah", or a "prophet", or much of anything else? Also, why ignore that what's written in Torah but then believing what's written in the "N.T."?

 

[CMike]

Since God didn't write the bible, I don't see how anyone other than the human authors could have spoken about them.

He did for jews.

God didn't write Talmud, either.

He did the oral law for jews too.

He gave the information to Moses, who wrote it down, if you want to get technical as far as the written law.

Jesus was a Jew -- a rabbi, in fact. Therefore, Jesus neither added to, nor subtracted from, Torah.

Jesus might have been born a jew, but he went far astray. He was not a rabbi for jews.

Aside from that, a "rabbi" could be really bad too.

Just being a jew doesn't mean that you aren't doing bad things.

There have been jewish rebels in the past who have done really bad things.

Leading jews away from the G-D that they know ,according to the Torah, is the thing same as leading them to worship idols.

 

[sojourner]

It may not be what you believe, but it is what you are doing.

If you are giving anyone else but the one true G-D divine power you are worshipping multiple gods.

Well, since Jesus is God, I don't see how it's possible that we're doing what you claim we're doing.

Of course not, it was jesus who wrote psalms, at the time he was transposed to become the musical conductor of the levites, and changed back again

Sarcasm isn't going to fix a poorly-conceived argument.

You know the first line says "Psalm Of David", right?

So? We have four gospels attributed to a Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, too. Doesn't mean that they were actually written by people with those names. IF David existed, he was likely illiterate. The story of David is HIGHLY mythic. In fact, the archaeological record does not support the existence of David or his kingdom, as they appear in the bible. You're going to have to do a whooooole lot better than give me what "the first line says."

Psalms 22 is much more than why have you forsaken me. As Metis pointed out and I pasted it ends on very positive note.

Yah. So did the crucifixion. See a correlation there?

This is how a true jewish martyr died.

Jesus wasn't martyred, so your point is not cogent.

Besides he was supposedly sacrificing himself, therefore, he should have been happy to be executed. That is what he wanted, right?

No, this is what was necessitated by human sinfulness.

If he didn't want it then he wouldn't have complained to G-D why have you forsaken me?

He wasn't complaining; he was praying. You did say that Psalm 22 is a prayer, yes?

If he was human, he wasn't G-D.

He was both: fully human -- fully God.

They didn't "reconcile humanity". It was just one portion in getting forgiveness when it was for sin.

Forgiveness for sin puts one back into correct relationship with God, yes? Therefore: reconciliation with God.

The most important method is to repent for your boo boo and do your best for it not to happen again, as G-D told Cain.

Jesus is our best.

 

[sojourner]

Therefore, he falls under Deuterenomy 13.

No. Therefore, since he is God, he cannot sin, for sin is separation from God. God cannot be separated from God's self.

 

[sojourner]

If one is ignoring what's written in Torah, then how do they know anything about Jesus vis-a-vis being a "messiah", or a "prophet", or much of anything else? Also, why ignore that what's written in Torah but then believing what's written in the "N.T."?

We don't "ignore" what's written in Torah. But since what is written in Torah is fulfilled in Jesus, when we become one body with him, we also become the fulfillment of Torah. Therefore, we embody Torah and do not objectify it as a "set of rules."

 

[sojourner]

He did for jews.

Theological and mythic truths do not substitute for empirical fact in making empirical claims about Jesus.

He did the oral law for jews too.

He gave the information to Moses, who wrote it down, if you want to get technical as far as the written law.

See above.

Jesus might have been born a jew, but he went far astray. He was not a rabbi for jews.

Oh? Where did he get the title? How was he allowed to teach in Jewish synagogues? Who followed him? Answers: Jews, Jews, Jews. Jesus was Jewish, was recognized by Jews as a Rabbi, and gleaned followers from -- not only among faithful Jews, but from the Pharisees and scribes.

Just being a jew doesn't mean that you aren't doing bad things.

Being God, though, certainly does mean that!

Leading jews away from the G-D that they know ,according to the Torah, is the thing same as leading them to worship idols.

Jesus didn't do that. Jesus led them closer to the God they knew -- according to Torah, apparently, since Jesus is, after all, the fulfillment of Torah.

 

[Ouroboros]

No. Therefore, since he is God, he cannot sin, for sin is separation from God. God cannot be separated from God's self.

If sin is defined as "separated from God" then what does the "why have you forsaken me" mean?

The problem is that the act of sinning and being in a state of sin is mixed up. Act of sin is not "being separated from God" since it's a state. The state of sin can't mean the same as acting sinful, or Jesus would have acted sinful at the point when he was forsaken. Right? If Jesus became sin/sinner or took on sin, he was a sinner at that point, how else would you explain that he took it on him?