It is uncertain...

[Fascist Christ]

Well said. One of the first people to admit that we all manufacture the god we want to have.

Part of me wants to agree with you, but then the other part wants to change your wording.

I make one unprovable presumption, but all of the qualities of the ideal derived therefrom are consequential, not manufactured. Therefore, the vision might not be what I "want."

However, you do make a valid point, which I must put more thought into. I am trying to think up a single quality of god that I do not like, but I cannot think of one.

 

[Merlin]

Perhaps you can volunteer to do so.

If you want an example I will repeat my Adam and Eve interpretation.

Almost everybody interprets this as Adam and Eve being tempted into sin. It is never quite defined what it is they have been tempted into, but I always got the impression that it was 'sins of the flesh'.

I interpret it completely differently. I think it was a message telling us not to set up these man-made denominations with man-made sins. (The smoke has started to come out of some people's ears already). My logic is as follows:-

Mankind originally had a good innocent relationship with God. Simple peoples with a simple and pure understanding indirect communication with God. Then somebody invented religion.

Suddenly all sorts of rules are imposed, very few of which have any purpose. (Trying to include all denominations); we can't have a glass of wine, or maybe a bacon sandwich, or a cup of tea et al. Women are often disadvantaged. We have to do things, and/or not do things on that one day each week. We have to chant meaningless prayers (for hundreds of years in Latin). We have to surrender our communication with God to going through a mediator (priest or minister). Having made us sinners from these trivial acts, they are the ones giving us absolution.

So today, quite innocent people leading blameless lives but who want to have a cup of coffee and a bacon sandwich before they take the family bowling on Sunday are sinners. I think that is plainly silly.

This was the temptation myth from the Adam and Eve story. God was telling us somebody ate from the (false) knowledge tree and that gave them the 'knowledge' to be a prophet, and from that came their religion. Followed closely by all of the above. So as a result we have all been sinners ever since, but not in God's eyes.

I believe that God never wanted us to lose this innocence and wants us to sweep away this clutter and talk to him directly. So this is what I believe is the interpretation of the fall of mankind set out in the Adam and Eve story.

 

[BeautifulMind]

I guess the reason for me asking the question is because I am curious as to why we, as a society, let our "faith", a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny, allow us to be so judgmental, narrow-minded, and cruel.

In my experience, most, if not all, of the religious believers that I have encountered have been lost, weak, or confused. It just seems that people find "faith" because they are people who need comfort from the real world or they need a guideline to live their own lives.

I don't mean to have my remarks offend anyone, they are just questions and experiences I want to share, but I do not see why religion should even exist. It seems all it does is cause war and segregation. In my opinion, it is definitely something that the world does not need.

 

[Merlin]

I guess the reason for me asking the question is because I am curious as to why we, as a society, let our "faith", a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny, allow us to be so judgmental, narrow-minded, and cruel.

In my experience, most, if not all, of the religious believers that I have encountered have been lost, weak, or confused. It just seems that people find "faith" because they are people who need comfort from the real world or they need a guideline to live their own lives.

I don't mean to have my remarks offend anyone, they are just questions and experiences I want to share, but I do not see why religion should even exist. It seems all it does is cause war and segregation. In my opinion, it is definitely something that the world does not need.

My first convert. I assume you agree with the post immediately in front of yours.

Careful though, now there are two of us, does that make us a religion?

 

[BeautifulMind]

No, because that definition of religion is: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. I do not believe in neither.

 

[Merlin]

No, because that definition of religion is: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. I do not believe in neither.

Apart form 'controlling human destiny', I never said that. I think this is in our own hands.

Controversially, I think the destiny of God might be in our hands also.

 

[BeautifulMind]

Anyway.... Thank you for posting =).

 

[Darkdale]

Well said. One of the first people to admit that we all manufacture the god we want to have.

Not true (or even close to true). Most of us adopt the god of a tradition we want to follow. The basic construct of the god and idea of divinity is already established in the tenants of the worldview. Believe me, if more people started making up their own gods, the world would be a better place.

 

[michel]

Apart form 'controlling human destiny', I never said that. I think this is in our own hands.

Controversially, I think the destiny of God might be in our hands also.

What do you mean by that, out of interest ?

 

[Fascist Christ]

I don't mean to have my remarks offend anyone, they are just questions and experiences I want to share, but I do not see why religion should even exist. It seems all it does is cause war and segregation. In my opinion, it is definitely something that the world does not need.

War is not caused by religion, but by tyrants who use religion to justify war to further their political and/or financial goals. If it weren't religion, it would be some other issue that people felt strongly about. For example, the civil war in the United States was, according to the North, about slavery, and according to the South, about economics and corruption. The North was so focused on the idea that slavery was wrong, that they found it better to kill each other. Take the same idea, but use an opposing religion in place of slavery.

As for segregation, it depends on what religion, and what denomination of the religion, that you would consider. There are both tolerant and intolerant Christians, but I do believe that Jesus was promoting tolerance. In that sense, I would say that those Christians who are intolerant are once again victims of the impositions of tyrants. For example, some Christians think that just because Moses didn't want gays in his tribe that we should outlaw it today, others disagree.

So, going back to what I said earlier, it matters not what you believe, but how you apply it to your own life. If your application consists of dictating to others how they should live their lives, then I feel you have taken your religion too far. At that point, you become the tyrant.

 

[michel]

I guess the reason for me asking the question is because I am curious as to why we, as a society, let our "faith", a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny, allow us to be so judgmental, narrow-minded, and cruel.

If ever I have been judgemental, narrow minded or cruel, it has had nothing to do with my faith; my faith would have stopped me from being like that.

In my experience, most, if not all, of the religious believers that I have encountered have been lost, weak, or confused. It just seems that people find "faith" because they are people who need comfort from the real world or they need a guideline to live their own lives.

Even if that was true, would it be such a bad thing ? Some people are known to re-offend, to go back into the safety of the prison life....I personally don't need any comfort, or guideline - but I happen to like the Christian one.

I don't mean to have my remarks offend anyone, they are just questions and experiences I want to share, but I do not see why religion should even exist. It seems all it does is cause war and segregation. In my opinion, it is definitely something that the world does not need.

Wow - you tell me about any one thing that exists and that hasn't got a negative side to it; why pick on religion ?

 

[Merlin]

What do you mean by that, out of interest ?

I think Paul is telling us that we who have the first fruits of the holy spirit are actually essential to the future of ??? what? Is it God's own future, or the future of just this world. I am leaning towards the former. I believe creation means everything, just waiting for us to fulfil His purpose. Why would it wait for longing for the sons of God to reveal ourselves to Him if we were not very important.

Ro 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;

Ro 8:20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;

Ro 8:21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

 

[BeautifulMind]

Michel, trust me, I definitely add threads to other forums, and write certain corporations letters, but religion probably interests me most because it is something, that I believe, that is one of the biggest problems in our world.

 

[lilithu]

No, because that definition of religion is: A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. I do not believe in neither.

Who's definition is that?

And why is it that people have some bad experiences with a few overzealous theists and then decide that ALL religion is bad and ALL conceptions of God are bad, etc, etc. One wouldn't be able to do that based on race, nationality, etc. but for some reason we think it's ok to overgeneralize when it comes to religion. Yes, I believe that you truly don't mean any offense by it. Yet I am still tired of it and I don't mean any offense by that either.

 

[BeautifulMind]

source of definition: www.dict.die.net

And it is not some, it is most of my experiences, and please explain to me how religion is good?

 

[Merlin]

source of definition: www.dict.die.net

And it is not some, it is most of my experiences, and please explain to me how religion is good?

You need to define 'good' with reference to religion.

 

[Fascist Christ]

source of definition: www.dict.die.net

And it is not some, it is most of my experiences, and please explain to me how religion is good?

Scroll down and you will find this:

"4. Strictness of fidelity in conforming to any practice, as if it were an enjoined rule of conduct."

Under many other definitions, my religion would not be considered a religion.

 

[Sunstone]

And it is not some, it is most of my experiences, and please explain to me how religion is good?

It seems to me, Beautiful Mind, that you want to believe religion is all bad. But how many things in life are all bad, or for that matter, all good? Very few, if any. And I cannnot believe that religion is somehow exempt from this general rule that most things in life are neither all good nor all bad.

For one thing, religion is a great enabler. It enables some people to do good and it enables some people to do evil. Consider the number of charities in America alone that are religiously based.

For another thing, most religious people, in my experience, are neither remarkably good nor remarkably evil people. They are neither saints nor demons. And in that, they are just like non religious people, who also tend to be neither remarkably good nor remarkably evil people.

So I have a great deal of difficulty buying into your notion that religion is merely a force for bad things in this world.

 

[Quiddity]

It seems to me, Beautiful Mind, that you want to believe religion is all bad. But how many things in life are all bad, or for that matter, all good? Very few, if any. And I cannnot believe that religion is somehow exempt from this general rule that most things in life are neither all good nor all bad.

Very true Sunstone. I think many people miss this point and it will affect how they percieve and interpret what see in their spiritual life.

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

Beautiful Mind...

The problem is not "religion". Religion that is pure is devoted to helping others.

The problem is that greedy people have perverted religion to be a device with which they can grab power and money.

Life is opportunistic, and unfortunately, the strong prey on the weak. When this is the modus, then good things can be capitalized on by the strong. Take my night dives in Bonaire. I dive with an incredibly bright canister light. During the dive, I was joined by a couple of tarpon. Huge beautiful fish. Then I figured out why. Where ever I pointed my light to look at a cool fishy, one of these tarpon would swoop in and gobble up the hapless creature. The light was NOT there to help them hunt, but they turned my noble intention into an opportunity to feed on the weak.

Religion is like the light. Unfortunately, unscrupulous individuals use this "Good thing" to identify the weak and they take the opportunity to swoop in and devour them. Does this make religion (or the light) bad? No, it does condemn the method in which the light is used. It's easy for the critters being et to loathe the light when they should only loathe those who abuse it. Surely the simile breaks down, but the concept is valid. There is ton's of evidence for Christianity: the empty tomb, the changed lives, the incredible scriptures. Don't let those who prey on the weakness of others blind you to the evidences out there. In fact, don't let those who oppose Christianity because of the excesses of these predators infect you with their bitterness.

Those who truly seek still find him.