It just makes so much sense...

[Trailblazer]

Didn't you read the Bible? It says he, didn't it?
No need to "interpret" it as anything else. The subject is Lazarus... is it not?

I asked you what he means. Is he the body or the soul, or something else?

Why do Bahais want to change every word in the Bible to mean something other than what is stated?

Why do Christians have to interpret every word in the Bible to mean something that they want it to mean, so they can believe what they want to believe, rather than what is stated?

If Christians all knew what the Bible means they would all agree on what it means but they don't agree, which is why we know that logically speaking, they cannot all be interpreting the Bible correctly.

So who is correct, which denomination of the thousands of denominations of Christianity is correct?

 

[Trailblazer]

Didn't Lazarus decompose?

It hardly matters since it was just a story.

 

[nPeace]

I asked you what he means. Is he the body or the soul, or something else?

Why do Christians have to interpret every word in the Bible to mean something that they want it to mean, so they can believe what they want to believe, rather than what is stated?

If Christians all knew what the Bible means they would all agree on what it means but they don't agree, which is why we know that logically speaking, they cannot all be interpreting the Bible correctly.

So who is correct, which denomination of the thousands of denominations of Christianity is correct?

You are just repeating things I say, and you do this instead of answering questions. I haven't done that, have I?

However, I already know you have an "interpretation" for everything, so it doesn't matter what any Christian, or "Christian" says.

As you said..."I make my own interpretation... based upon what I know from the interpretations that have been made by the central figures of the Baha'i Faith"
Your own admission
That's contrary to...
(Genesis 40:8) Joseph said to them: “Do not interpretations belong to God?. . ."

(Genesis 41:15-16) Then Pharaoh said to Joseph: “I had a dream, but there is no one to interpret it. Now I have heard it said about you that you can hear a dream and interpret it.” At this Joseph answered Pharaoh: “I need not be considered! God will speak concerning Pharaoh’s welfare.”

(Daniel 2:28) But there is a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets,

 

[Wildswanderer]

Let me put it to you this way: Is Christ going to live on the earth in person, in flesh, forever, when in fact there are many other places in the universe and spiritual realm (like heaven and I'm not talking about the physical heavens necessarily where the planets, stars, moons, etc. are.)?

What I'm saying is that we will live in the new heaves and Earth. Exactly how that will work I don't know but we are given some glimpses in revelations.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The Bible does not say that God brings people back from a state of decomposition, which debunks your claim.

It says the dead in Christ will rise.

 

[nPeace]

It hardly matters since it was just a story.

Why talk about the Bible in a realistic way, and then claim it is a story when your realism doesn't stand up against things said persons or scripture you refer to says something contrary?
Isn't that dishonesty, and hypocrisy?

 

[Wildswanderer]

know that many people believe that but I do not believe it. I believe that Christ's physical body died on the cross and His soul ascended to heaven and that Christ is alive in a spiritual body in heaven at the right hand of God, where He will live forever.

If Christ was not raised physically our faith is in vain.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are just repeating things I say, and you do this instead of answering questions. I haven't done that, have I?

I am not repeating what you said, I am repeating what I already asked.
I am asking a question and this is the second time I have asked it.
I asked you what he means. Is he the body or the soul, or something else?

However, I already know you have an "interpretation" for everything, so it doesn't matter what any Christian, or "Christian" says.

Likewise, I already know you have an "interpretation" for everything, so it doesn't matter what any 'other' Christian says or what any Baha'i says.

As you said..."I make my own interpretation... based upon what I know from the interpretations that have been made by the central figures of the Baha'i Faith"
Your own admission
That's contrary to...
(Genesis 40:8) Joseph said to them: “Do not interpretations belong to God?. . ."

(Genesis 41:15-16) Then Pharaoh said to Joseph: “I had a dream, but there is no one to interpret it. Now I have heard it said about you that you can hear a dream and interpret it.” At this Joseph answered Pharaoh: “I need not be considered! God will speak concerning Pharaoh’s welfare.”

(Daniel 2:28) But there is a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets,

Those Bible verses are not relevant to what we are discussing. God does not speak and interpret anything.
All reading requires interpretation in order to ascertain the meaning of what we are reading.
But as I said before, you can always find a Bible verse to try to prove what you are trying to prove, which is what you believe. All you have to do is go to the cherry tree and start cherry-picking for a verse.

 

[Trailblazer]

It says the dead in Christ will rise.

The verse does not say that dead people will rise from their graves.
What I believe that verse means is that those who are spiritually dead, asleep in Christ, will be the first to rise from their sleep.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why talk about the Bible in a realistic way, and then claim it is a story when your realism doesn't stand up against things said persons or scripture you refer to says something contrary?
Isn't that dishonesty, and hypocrisy?

No, the entire Bible is not to be interpreted as literal happenings...
Some of the Bible is literal and some of it symbolic.
It is our job to figure out which is which.

Of course if you want to be a literalist that's your choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

If Christ was not raised physically our faith is in vain.

I know that is the Christian sales pitch but I do not buy it.
I wonder why people just buy what is for sale without looking at it.
The Baha'i way is to interpret the scriptures for ourselves rather than just believing what we are told they mean, which has become a Christian doctrine.

Notably, Jesus never said that if He was not raised physically our faith is in vain. That was Paul.

The Resurrection of the Dead
…16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.…

But what do those verses mean?
The Baha'i interpretation is explained in this article:
Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

 

[Wildswanderer]

The verse does not say that dead people will rise from their graves.
What I believe that verse means is that those who are spiritually dead, asleep in Christ, will be the first to rise from their sleep.

I read what it actually says instead of trying to reinterpret it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I read what it actually says instead of trying to reinterpret it.

It says the dead in Christ will rise.
That verse can mean different things to different people.
Nobody can understand what the means without interpreting it.
What does dead in Christ mean?
What does rise mean? Rise from where?
It does not 'actually say' rise from graves. It says nothing about graves.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It says the dead in Christ will rise.
That verse can mean different things to different people.
Nobody can understand what the means without interpreting it.
What does dead in Christ mean?
What does rise mean? Rise from where?
It does not 'actually say' rise from graves. It says nothing about graves.

Oh good grief.
How about we read the plain meaning instead of trying to make up a meaning?

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh good grief.
How about we read the plain meaning instead of trying to make up a meaning?

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rise from where?
It doesn't say rise from graves. It says nothing about graves.
Sounds like you are adding to the Bible.

The Bible says:
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

 

[Wildswanderer]

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rise from where?
It doesn't say rise from graves. It says nothing about graves.
Sounds like you are adding to the Bible.

The Bible says:
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Where did you think they were rising from? Where did Jesus rise from? It's not hard to understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where did you think they were rising from? Where did Jesus rise from? It's not hard to understand.

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It says nothing about rising from a grave. That is adding to the Bible what is not there.
You just want to believe that so you believe it.
Dead bodies do not rise from graves. Not Jesus, not anyone.

 

[Wildswanderer]

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It says nothing about rising from a grave. That is adding to the Bible what is not there.
You just want to believe that so you believe it.
Dead bodies do not rise from graves. Not Jesus, not anyone.

Lol, so now you deny the resurrection. Why not just throw away your Bible if you don't believe anything in it?

 

[Trailblazer]

Lol, so now you deny the resurrection. Why not just throw away your Bible if you don't believe anything in it?

Just because I don't believe in the 'bodily' resurrection that does not mean I do not believe 'anything' in the Bible. Not even all Christians believe in the bodily resurrection.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

“Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.”

 

[nPeace]

I am not repeating what you said, I am repeating what I already asked.

I understand. Bad habits become second nature and natural behavior.

I am asking a question and this is the second time I have asked it.
I asked you what he means. Is he the body or the soul, or something else?

I answered you, just like you answer me... only not by repeating you.
I said...
Didn't you read the Bible? It says he, didn't it?
No need to "interpret" it as anything else. The subject is Lazarus... is it not?

How can you ask me "what he means. Is he the body or the soul, or something else?" when I already said what I did in post #51.
Jesus, nor any part of the Bible, said anything about the body rising.
Both Jesus and the Bible said people will rise. Not bodies.
"Your brother will rise again."
Not "Your brother's body will rise again."
Martha correctly stated... “I know that he [Not 'His body'] will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Did you miss that, in a haste to just repeat what I said slightly altered?

I also said...However, I already know you have an "interpretation" for everything, so it doesn't matter what any Christian, or "Christian" says.
In other words, it doesn't make sense to me why a person who thinks everyone has their own interpretation, but theirs is the one they consider the only acceptable one, would ask what interpretation the others have, when it doesn't matter.
What logic and sense do you see in that?
I'm open to reason.

Likewise, I already know you have an "interpretation" for everything, so it doesn't matter what any 'other' Christian says or what any Baha'i says.

You do not know that at all. You made a claim - just a frivolous one, because you can, but you cannot even support the claim, nor show it has any basis.
interpretation - the action of explaining the meaning of something.
Have I explained the meaning of anything in that scripture? No I did not. I read the text as it is.
If anything needs explaining, I let scripture explain scripture. I do not interpret them.

Just because you do, that doesn't make it acceptable for you to think that everyone does what you do, or accuse them of it.
That's not showing understanding of common knowledge.
If everything needs interpreting, then interpretations need interpreting, and that's illogical.

It does matter to me what others say, because I like to reason, so it's important to me to hear what another person believes or thinks.

Those Bible verses are not relevant to what we are discussing. God does not speak and interpret anything.

So if God does not speak, why are you telling people to listen to the "messengers of God" like Bahaullah?
Why listen to them, if God does not speak, and give the interpretation?

All reading requires interpretation in order to ascertain the meaning of what we are reading.

Really? Interpret this... Read this sentence.

But as I said before, you can always find a Bible verse to try to prove what you are trying to prove, which is what you believe. All you have to do is go to the cherry tree and start cherry-picking for a verse.

That's both illogical, and false.
One can try to prove something, but that doesn't mean they have.
Anyone can find a piece of information / data in anything - even scientific study, to try to prove what they are trying to prove, but they have only tried.
Their attempts can be disproved.

I really wish you used something logical, and sensible Trailblazer, but you use some really frivolous arguments, to be honest.

No, the entire Bible is not to be interpreted as literal happenings...
Some of the Bible is literal and some of it symbolic.
It is our job to figure out which is which.

Of course if you want to be a literalist that's your choice.

Um. Do you think Jesus was speaking to Martha and Mary - Lazarus' brother, or was that all a story, and there was no Martha and Mary, or Lazarus, and Jesus knew of no such family, nor did the Pharisees... or was there even a Jesus?

You see, Trailblazer, when people become hypocritical, and dishonest in their agenda, they paint themselves in a corner. and when people do this, it's easy to see that they hate the Bible really, because they are not on the side of God, but on the side of his adversary.