It just makes so much sense...

[Wildswanderer]

Just because I don't believe in the 'bodily' resurrection that does not mean I do not believe 'anything' in the Bible. Not even all Christians believe in the bodily resurrection.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

“Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.”

What a crock. All you have to do is actually read your Bible to know it's a crock. Those people aren't theologians, they are false teachers.

 

[Trailblazer]

I answered you, just like you answer me... only not by repeating you.
I said...
Didn't you read the Bible? It says he, didn't it?
No need to "interpret" it as anything else. The subject is Lazarus... is it not?

How can you ask me "what he means. Is he the body or the soul, or something else?" when I already said what I did in post #51.

Jesus, nor any part of the Bible, said anything about the body rising.
Both Jesus and the Bible said people will rise. Not bodies.
"Your brother will rise again."
Not "Your brother's body will rise again."
Martha correctly stated... “I know that he [Not 'His body'] will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Did you miss that, in a haste to just repeat what I said slightly altered?

No, you did not answer my question.
Stop playing games. Something has to rise again.
Does he refer to the physical body of Lazarus? Just answer yes or no.

I also said...However, I already know you have an "interpretation" for everything, so it doesn't matter what any Christian, or "Christian" says.
In other words, it doesn't make sense to me why a person who thinks everyone has their own interpretation, but theirs is the one they consider the only acceptable one, would ask what interpretation the others have, when it doesn't matter.
What logic and sense do you see in that?
I'm open to reason.

I said: "Likewise, I already know you have an "interpretation" for everything, so it doesn't matter what any 'other' Christian says or what any Baha'i says."

I meant that it does not matter to YOU what any 'other' Christian says or what any Baha'i says...
I did not say it does not matter to ME what any 'other' Christian says or what any Baha'i says.

You do not know that at all. You made a claim - just a frivolous one, because you can, but you cannot even support the claim, nor show it has any basis.
interpretation - the action of explaining the meaning of something.
Have I explained the meaning of anything in that scripture? No I did not.
I read the text as it is.
If anything needs explaining, I let scripture explain scripture. I do not interpret them.

Scriptures does not explain scripture. That is the MOST ILLOGICAL thing I have ever heard.
Scripture just sits on a page waiting to be read and interpreted. All reading requires interpretation.

If everything needs interpreting, then interpretations need interpreting, and that's illogical.

I meant everything we read requires interpreting. Words that comprise sentences need interpreting.

So if God does not speak, why are you telling people to listen to the "messengers of God" like Bahaullah?
Why listen to them, if God does not speak, and give the interpretation?

God speaks through the Messengers who write scriptures. Nobody can ever know if God spoke to anyone in the Bible since the Bible was written by men, not Messengers. Messengers of God are both divine and human, so they can speak for God, but God does not speak through ordinary men. The best we can say is that the men who wrote the Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit. That is a far cry from the Word of God.

Really? Interpret this... Read this sentence.

It means to read this sentence.

That's both illogical, and false.
One can try to prove something, but that doesn't mean they have.
Anyone can find a piece of information / data in anything - even scientific study, to try to prove what they are trying to prove, but they have only tried.
Their attempts can be disproved.

It is neither illogical or false.
I said: "But as I said before, you can always find a Bible verse to try to prove what you are trying to prove, which is what you believe. All you have to do is go to the cherry tree and start cherry-picking for a verse."
I did not say they have proven anything, I said try to prove.

Um. Do you think Jesus was speaking to Martha and Mary - Lazarus' brother, or was that all a story, and there was no Martha and Mary, or Lazarus, and Jesus knew of no such family, nor did the Pharisees... or was there even a Jesus?

I said there is no reason to think there was ever such a person as Lazarus, and I think it was a fictional story. Can you prove that Lazarus, Martha or Mary existed?

"A well-known member of a wealthy family in Bethany had supposedly been dead for four days, a funeral performed and the family publicly grieved. If he then appeared alive and well, and even the chief priests knew about it, then this would be something very hard to hide. The absence of any contemporary record, letter or even attempted refutation suggests the event probably never happened.

Remember that the authors of the earlier, synoptic gospels apparently knew nothing of this, the most awe-inspiring miracle performed by Jesus. All we have is a parable in Luke chapter 16, where Jesus talks hypothetically of Lazarus being resurrected."
https://www.quora.com/If-Lazarus-wa...cal-sources-outside-the-Bible-to-confirm-this

Scholars concur that Jesus existed so I believe that Jesus existed.

You see, Trailblazer, when people become hypocritical, and dishonest in their agenda, they paint themselves in a corner. and when people do this, it's easy to see that they hate the Bible really, because they are not on the side of God, but on the side of his adversary.

I am on the side of God and I do not hate the Bible just because I believe some of it is symbolic, fictional stories rather than literal characters and events.

There is no adversary, Satan is not a real entity, Imo. The Bible does not say that Satan is a real entity, you just assumed that.. For example:

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The way I interpret those verses is that Jesus was not talking to a real entity called Satan; Jesus was saying to Peter that the things that are not of God but are rather of men (selfish desires) are offensive to Him, so they are evil. Satan symbolizes evil. Then Jesus tells His disciples to deny their selfish desires and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for their selfish desires shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

 

[nPeace]

No, you did not answer my question.
Stop playing games. Something has to rise again.
Does he refer to the physical body of Lazarus? Just answer yes or no.

You don't get it do you.
You said it can mean whatever one wants it to mean right?
Does it make sense to you, to ask what it means then? What sense does it make?

Scriptures does not explain scripture. That is the MOST ILLOGICAL thing I have ever heard.
Scripture just sits on a page waiting to be read and interpreted. All reading requires interpretation.

Unbelievable!
This is pure nonsense Trailblazer.
All reading requires interpretation by whom? The reader. Oh my poor head. I don't think you think these things through.
So if I write a book, and I explain every Chapter of the book, in the concluding Chapter, I have not given the explanation! I need you to come along, and tell me what I mean!? Wha???
I wonder about you Trailblazer. Honestly.
Oh my head.

Interpret this... Read this sentence.

It means to read this sentence.

Now interpret what you wrote, 'cause "everything we read requires interpreting. Words that comprise sentences need interpreting."

 

[YoursTrue]

What I'm saying is that we will live in the new heaves and Earth. Exactly how that will work I don't know but we are given some glimpses in revelations.

It's interesting because when someone is with someone it doesn't have to be physically. For instance, a person can tell someone he supports, "I'm with you on that one..." He could even be speaking on a phone or writing a letter.

 

[YoursTrue]

Just because I don't believe in the 'bodily' resurrection that does not mean I do not believe 'anything' in the Bible. Not even all Christians believe in the bodily resurrection.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

“Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.”

But let's say we don't compare the Bible with other religious teachings. Then what?

 

[YoursTrue]

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It says nothing about rising from a grave. That is adding to the Bible what is not there.
You just want to believe that so you believe it.
Dead bodies do not rise from graves. Not Jesus, not anyone.

The grave obviously doesn't necessarily mean a body in a casket in a hole in the ground. Unless you think those cremated will not be resurrected. Or those who drowned and decomposed under water.

 

[YoursTrue]

the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It says nothing about rising from a grave. That is adding to the Bible what is not there.
You just want to believe that so you believe it.
Dead bodies do not rise from graves. Not Jesus, not anyone.

It doesn't say the dead not in Christ will rise first, does it,? Of course there was always Lazarus. What happened there? But then there is the account of the young man, the widow's son, who had died and brought back to life by the prophet. God makes a body as He sees fit for every living organism, including humans.

 

[Trailblazer]

But let's say we don't compare the Bible with other religious teachings. Then what?

I am not comparing the Bible to any other religious teaching. Only the Bible has the resurrection stories.

 

[Trailblazer]

The grave obviously doesn't necessarily mean a body in a casket in a hole in the ground. Unless you think those cremated will not be resurrected. Or those who drowned and decomposed under water.

That is a good point about the people who were cremated and drowned. Then what do you think rising from the grave means?

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't say the dead not in Christ will rise first, does it,?

Firstly, what do you think "in Christ" means? Do you think it means Christians?
I believe it means people who have forgotten Christ or never believed in Him.

Of course there was always Lazarus. What happened there? But then there is the account of the young man, the widow's son, who had died and brought back to life by the prophet. God makes a body as He sees fit for every living organism, including humans.

I do not believe that any physical bodies were ever brought back to life. I believe the account of Lazarus was fictional, to make a spiritual point.

 

[Brian2]

Tell me if I am reading you correctly. Otherwise, translate, okay?

The life (soul) is alive. Correct?
Let me repeat it, just in case it didn't register.
Life is alive.

Did I read you correctly?
Otherwise, translate please... what is life, and break down Matthew 10:28 in your own words please.

The life is the spirit that a person gets when they are conceived. Body plus spirit equals human soul.
But that word soul seems to confuse a JW. Soul is the totality of the person. When they are alive it comprised a spirit and body.
That life/spirit, which is alive and animates the body, is what is conscious and learns and operates through the body and wills according to the directions of the body and mind and God, and decides which one to listen to at any given moment. That life/spirit is what becomes the essence of the person.
I hope it is clear even if it is probably repeating what I have already said.
At the death of the body the totality of the person is the spirit (Jesus gave us His spirit at death into the hands of God)
That spirit is then the totality of the person and is called the soul. This soul, the essence of the person, is alive after the death of the body (and so the many references to the souls of the dead in the Bible.
The human person of course is not complete without a body to live in and through so a resurrection is needed.
God can destroy both the body and the soul, but we humans can only destroy the body of a person.

 

[Brian2]

It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.”

The first thing the apostles taught at Pentecost was the resurrection of Jesus. Even those who are sceptics but want to find the historic Jesus admit that the bodily resurrection was what was taught from the start and they taught how it was prophesied in the OT.
It does not matter whether they taught that Jesus raised up His body or God raised it us.

Acts 2:22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.

 

[Brian2]

That's true, but according to the Bible the new body will be a spiritual body, not a physical body.

1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]

Read full chapter

It's true that it will be a spiritual body and it will be immortal and it will not be able to rot away or decay, and really do don't have much of an idea what it will be like BUT when we look at the resurrection body of Jesus we can get an idea. It was physical to an extent but it was different to the body that was buries, it had been transformed into a spiritual body. Spiritual does not mean that it was a spirit, because Jesus showed the disciples that He was still flesh and bone. If we look at the meaning of "spiritual" in the New Testament, it does not mean, made of spirit.
What Vine says in his wordbook of the New Testament is that "spiritual" in this case means, controlled by our spirit.
At the moment our bodies and minds have a great influence on what we do and we are pretty weak when it comes to sinning. At the resurrection it won't be that way.
Jesus resurrection body was said to be flesh and bone (not flesh and blood-----blood is a symbol of corruption in the Bible as well as being the life of the body----imo our spirit will take it's place and give life to the new spiritual body)
This sort of body will be suitable to live with God and Jesus in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth and no doubt will also be able to go anywhere and survive, even in heaven.
But this sort of resurrection with a spiritual body imo not going to happen with everyone. Some will be resurrected into a normal physical body.

 

[nPeace]

The life is the spirit that a person gets when they are conceived.

The life is the spirit?
#1 Scripture please.
#2 Hebrew and Greek reference please.
Strong's Concordance
נֶפֶשׁ
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

#3 Question. Are you saying, when the spirit goes back to God, the life has gone to God?

Body plus spirit equals human soul.

Can you elaborate please.
Are you saying that the body is animated by the spirit, thus allowing a living being; person; life; soul, as described at Genesis 2:7?

But that word soul seems to confuse a JW. Soul is the totality of the person. When they are alive it comprised a spirit and body.

Can you explain. I didn't get that.

That life/spirit, which is alive and animates the body, is what is conscious and learns and operates through the body and wills according to the directions of the body and mind and God, and decides which one to listen to at any given moment. That life/spirit is what becomes the essence of the person.

The spirit is conscious?
Please provide scripture(s) that says this.
In fact, please provide scripture(s) which say what you claim here.

I hope it is clear even if it is probably repeating what I have already said.

Thanks.
Not everything is clear. I hope you will make it clear.

At the death of the body the totality of the person is the spirit (Jesus gave us His spirit at death into the hands of God)

Where can I find that in scripture?

That spirit is then the totality of the person and is called the soul. This soul, the essence of the person, is alive after the death of the body (and so the many references to the souls of the dead in the Bible.

The spirit is called the soul?

Where can I find that in scripture, or any Hebrew and Greek Concordance?

The human person of course is not complete without a body to live in and through so a resurrection is needed.

You say the human person is not complete without a body to live in, so where is this human person when they have no body?

God can destroy both the body and the soul, but we humans can only destroy the body of a person.

So what is the soul?
Hebrew and Greek say it is the life.
So I can easily understand Jesus' words at Matthew 10:28.
And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul (life); rather, fear him who can destroy both soul (life) and body in Gehenna.

Since Jehovah is the source of life, only he can completely end any hope of life.
Man can kill us, but our life is with God - safe in his hand.
So in that sense, man has not destroyed our life, because we are living, to God.
Nothing can separate us from God's love. Not even death, Paul says. Jesus is saying that.

So can you explain the verse with your understanding of what the soul is?

 

[Trailblazer]

The first thing the apostles taught at Pentecost was the resurrection of Jesus. Even those who are sceptics but want to find the historic Jesus admit that the bodily resurrection was what was taught from the start and they taught how it was prophesied in the OT.

Do you have verses from the gospels to support this?
Acts is not from the gospels.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's true that it will be a spiritual body and it will be immortal and it will not be able to rot away or decay, and really do don't have much of an idea what it will be like BUT when we look at the resurrection body of Jesus we can get an idea.

How do you think you know what the resurrection body of Jesus was like, by looking at different verses and slapping them together to form an image in your mind?

Where in the Bible does it say that Christians will get a body like Jesus had? You have to do a lot of creative interpretation to come up with that belief.

It was physical to an extent but it was different to the body that was buries, it had been transformed into a spiritual body.

According to Paul a physical body does not get transformed into a spiritual body, since they are two different kinds of bodies.

Paul said that there are two different kinds of bodies.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Jesus resurrection body was said to be flesh and bone (not flesh and blood-----blood is a symbol of corruption in the Bible as well as being the life of the body----imo our spirit will take it's place and give life to the new spiritual body)
This sort of body will be suitable to live with God and Jesus in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth and no doubt will also be able to go anywhere and survive, even in heaven.

You sure have a great imagination, but you have made many assumptions as to what verses mean. If these verses mean what you think they means tat mans other Christians reading the same Bible who believe differently than you do are all wrong. This is problematic.

Baha'is believe in a spiritual body that will be able to go anywhere in the spiritual world, but not on earth.

But this sort of resurrection with a spiritual body imo not going to happen with everyone. Some will be resurrected into a normal physical body.

Please tell me how you think that would work? How would a decomposed body be recomposed? What about people who were cremated?

Why wouldn't everyone would get a spiritual body? Baha'is believe that everyone will get a spiritual body, although that body will vary.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

Everyone will not have the same kind of body, as that body will take on a form of which it is worthy.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

 

[YoursTrue]

I am not comparing the Bible to any other religious teaching. Only the Bible has the resurrection stories.

That's interesting. It's true that I have read some other religious documents, but not like I read and examine the Bible. So are you saying that no other religious writings document a resurrection?

 

[YoursTrue]

Firstly, what do you think "in Christ" means? Do you think it means Christians?
I believe it means people who have forgotten Christ or never believed in Him.

I do not believe that any physical bodies were ever brought back to life. I believe the account of Lazarus was fictional, to make a spiritual point.

Your first question can be somewhat detailed in response, so I'll be brief and perhaps more can be discussed another time. To be in Christ means to an extent to be part of the body of Christ. Yes, I know this may sound complicated, but let's take a simple example first. When Jesus was on the earth, he had followers. And he also had opposers. So as I said, I'll be brief, but you can look for more information about this at your leisure at www.jw.org, using the search box for "in Christ." It's very helpful, but I'll give you one thought that might help to shed light on the subject.
Paul wrote to fellow Christians at Philippians 1:1 "Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the holy ones in union with Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, along with overseers and ministerial servants:"
So notice that it says to the holy ones in union with Christ Jesus.
Yes, there's more, of course, but right now I'll start with that thought. In Christ, dead or alive, would be really in union with Christ.

 

[YoursTrue]

The life is the spirit that a person gets when they are conceived. Body plus spirit equals human soul.
But that word soul seems to confuse a JW. Soul is the totality of the person. When they are alive it comprised a spirit and body.
That life/spirit, which is alive and animates the body, is what is conscious and learns and operates through the body and wills according to the directions of the body and mind and God, and decides which one to listen to at any given moment. That life/spirit is what becomes the essence of the person.
I hope it is clear even if it is probably repeating what I have already said.
At the death of the body the totality of the person is the spirit (Jesus gave us His spirit at death into the hands of God)
That spirit is then the totality of the person and is called the soul. This soul, the essence of the person, is alive after the death of the body (and so the many references to the souls of the dead in the Bible.
The human person of course is not complete without a body to live in and through so a resurrection is needed.
God can destroy both the body and the soul, but we humans can only destroy the body of a person.

Excuse me for getting involved in this conversation, Brian2, but you do believe then that God can destroy body and soul, right? If so, the soul is destructible.
We know Revelation 16:3 speaks also of living souls that died."... the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

 

[Trailblazer]

That's interesting. It's true that I have read some other religious documents, but not like I read and examine the Bible. So are you saying that no other religious writings document a resurrection?

I meant that no other religious writings document the resurrection of Christ.
I don't really know if any other religions document a resurrection.