Italy makes surrogacy an universal crime

[Estro Felino]

It was already a crime in Italy, now it forbids people from doing it abroad too :
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italy-makes-it-illegal-seek-surrogacy-abroad-2024-10-16/

In the country the practice is also despised and nicknamed as "uterus for rent" to highlight how certain women are disposed to rent their own motherhood , as if babies were things to sell.

I applaud this decision. I mean... I think that couples that cannot have children should grow up and become adults.
You become an adult when you understand that sacrifice and renounce give you wisdom and strength.
So...if God didn't give you any children, you must respect His will. And move on.

Thoughts?
Be as merciless as possible.

 

[GoodAttention]

How’s that Italian birth rate looking?

Altruistic surrogacy should be legal. If an Italian woman has a sister who can carry the child that she cannot then why not?

If an Italian widow can still have IVF if her husband dies, then Italy’s surrogacy laws make no sense.

 

[Estro Felino]

How’s that Italian birth rate looking?

In a Europe run by usurers, you must not and cannot produce children. Who will be victimized by the system.

Altruistic surrogacy should be legal. If an Italian woman has a sister who can carry the child that she cannot then why not?

Well...the sister can also sleep with the brother-in-law... I mean... swinging is so fashionable these days.

If an Italian widow can still have IVF if her husband dies, then Italy’s surrogacy laws make no sense.

Children deserve young mothers.
This law intends to undo a horrific marketplace where babies are commodified.
A human being is juridically a person whose existence has no price.

 

[HonestJoe]

Thoughts?
Be as merciless as possible.

Do you also believe adoption should be criminalised on the same basis? What about all the other medical procedures that can be used to help a couple struggling to have children naturally? Where do you draw the line of "Gods will"? After all, if God didn't want surrogacy to happen, why would it be possible?

While there are certainly issues with how surrogacy is operated in some cases, I'm not convinced criminalising it entirely is the best way to address those issues nor will it necessarily prevent all of the most problematic behaviour happening.

Also, I couldn't help but notice you didn't even mention the idea that this is primarily targeted at same-sex couples, and the welfare of mixed-sex couples who can't have children of their own has just been sacrificed for political purposes.

 

[Argentbear]

It was already a crime in Italy, now it forbids people from doing it abroad too :
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italy-makes-it-illegal-seek-surrogacy-abroad-2024-10-16/

In the country the practice is also despised and nicknamed as "uterus for rent" to highlight how certain women are disposed to rent their own motherhood , as if babies were things to sell.

I applaud this decision. I mean... I think that couples that cannot have children should grow up and become adults.
You become an adult when you understand that sacrifice and renounce give you wisdom and strength.
So...if God didn't give you any children, you must respect His will. And move on.

Thoughts?
Be as merciless as possible.

It is a common theme among cults to seek control manipulation and exploitation of the reproductive choices and the sex lives of not just cult members but of society in general.

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you also believe adoption should be criminalised on the same basis?

What I meant is that people who want to be parents have adoption as solution.
So adoption (even adoption from gay parents) is absolutely okay for me.

What about all the other medical procedures that can be used to help a couple struggling to have children naturally? Where do you draw the line of "Gods will"?

I disagree with those procedures.
If one is sterile, one should try to accept that condition and consider adoption as a solution.

After all, if God didn't want surrogacy to happen, why would it be possible?

The problem is the commodifying of babies...which is not present in adoption.
Adoption is a right given to people who are considered suitable to become parents.

While there are certainly issues with how surrogacy is operated in some cases, I'm not convinced criminalising it entirely is the best way to address those issues nor will it necessarily prevent all of the most problematic behaviour happening.

Juridically it's a mess.
The State cannot condone that a woman has a baby and stops being the biological mother because she sells her own baby to another woman who becomes the legal mothers.
The State cannot and must not okay this marketplace.
A woman can deliver a baby and give that baby for adoption. That's a yes, because the State takes care of everything and no money is paid.

Also, I couldn't help but notice you didn't even mention the idea that this is primarily targeted at same-sex couples, and the welfare of mixed-sex couples who can't have children of their own has just been sacrificed for political purposes.

I am for giving gay couples the right to adopt...so there is always an alternative.

 

[Wu Wei]

It was already a crime in Italy, now it forbids people from doing it abroad too :
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italy-makes-it-illegal-seek-surrogacy-abroad-2024-10-16/

In the country the practice is also despised and nicknamed as "uterus for rent" to highlight how certain women are disposed to rent their own motherhood , as if babies were things to sell.

I applaud this decision. I mean... I think that couples that cannot have children should grow up and become adults.
You become an adult when you understand that sacrifice and renounce give you wisdom and strength.
So...if God didn't give you any children, you must respect His will. And move on.

Thoughts?
Be as merciless as possible.

good luck enforcing that outside of Italy....

 

[HonestJoe]

What I meant is that people who want to be parents have adoption as solution.
So adoption (even adoption from gay parents) is absolutely okay for me.

I don't see how that would be any different in relation to the moral principles you identified in the OP though. If childless couples are meant to just "accept Gods will", wouldn't that be an argument against surrogacy, any fertility treatment and adoption equally?

The problem is the commodifying of babies...which is not present in adoption.
Adoption is a right given to people who are considered suitable to become parents.

Commodification certainly can be a problem with adoption too, especially adoption from other countries (which is apparently quite popular in Italy, as with many other developed nations). If this was the primary concern, it would be perfectly possible to apply similar requirements and limitations on surrogacy as exist for adoption. That could include restrictions on payments too. As I said, simply (trying to) eliminate the procedure entirely doesn't strike me as the best way to address these issues, which has to make you wonder if they are the true motives.

I am for giving gay couples the right to adopt...so there is always an alternative.

This isn't really about what you're OK with but what your government is. It has been clearly suggested that the true primary motive for this was to prevent same-sex couples having families so I think that needs to be addressed and considered. If it is the case in any way, what's to stop them implementing (more) restrictions on adoptions to make them impossible for same-sex couples too?

 

[Estro Felino]

good luck enforcing that outside of Italy....

It's a deterrent.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't see how that would be any different in relation to the moral principles you identified in the OP though. If childless couples are meant to just "accept Gods will", wouldn't that be an argument against surrogacy, any fertility treatment and adoption equally?

Not at all.
Because with adoption we are speaking of children who already exist.

Commodification certainly can be a problem with adoption too, especially adoption from other countries (which is apparently quite popular in Italy, as with many other developed nations). If this was the primary concern, it would be perfectly possible to apply similar requirements and limitations on surrogacy as exist for adoption. That could include restrictions on payments too. As I said, simply (trying to) eliminate the procedure entirely doesn't strike me as the best way to address these issues, which has to make you wonder if they are the true motives.

I would like to know what pushes people who want to become parents at all costs to have children with their same DNA as them.
I cannot empathize with this...I am sorry.
Sounds like something egoistical...rather than an act of love.

This isn't really about what you're OK with but what your government is. It has been clearly suggested that the true primary motive for this was to prevent same-sex couples having families so I think that needs to be addressed and considered. If it is the case in any way, what's to stop them implementing (more) restrictions on adoptions to make them impossible for same-sex couples too?

It certainly has a dissuasive meaning towards gay parenthood...
Nevertheless lesbian couples can still become parents through artificial insemination.
As for gay couples, there is also adoption as alternative.

 

[metis]

It was already a crime in Italy, now it forbids people from doing it abroad too :
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italy-makes-it-illegal-seek-surrogacy-abroad-2024-10-16/

In the country the practice is also despised and nicknamed as "uterus for rent" to highlight how certain women are disposed to rent their own motherhood , as if babies were things to sell.

I applaud this decision. I mean... I think that couples that cannot have children should grow up and become adults.
You become an adult when you understand that sacrifice and renounce give you wisdom and strength.
So...if God didn't give you any children, you must respect His will. And move on.

Thoughts?
Be as merciless as possible.

So, like the Republicans here, they are so willing to control what women do with her own uterus. Fascism at its "finest".

 

[HonestJoe]

Because with adoption we are speaking of children who already exist.

I'm not sure that's relevant to the moral issue of what should be expected of infertile couples. Otherwise, you'd be making the argument that even fertile couples should be expected to go for adoption in the first instance.

I would like to know what pushes people who want to become parents at all costs to have children with their same DNA as them.

Me neither as it happens, but I don't think we want to get in to the area of criminalising things just because you or I don't understand other people's desires for them.

It certainly has a dissuasive meaning towards gay parenthood...

It's a bit more than than. The implication is that it is the primary motive for the government. I don't think it's legitimate for you to echo what could be secondary or even flawed justifications without considering that potential motive.

Nevertheless lesbian couples can still become parents through artificial insemination.
As for gay couples, there is also adoption as alternative.

They can at the moment (though not necessarily as easily as mixed-sex couples) but if the motive behind this change is about targeting same-sex couples, who is to say that won't be extended to those other options? And would you really object if that were to happen?

 

[Argentbear]

Not at all.
Because with adoption we are speaking of children who already exist.


I would like to know what pushes people who want to become parents at all costs to have children with their same DNA as them.
I cannot empathize with this...I am sorry.
Sounds like something egoistical...rather than an act of love.

It certainly has a dissuasive meaning towards gay parenthood...
Nevertheless lesbian couples can still become parents through artificial insemination.
As for gay couples, there is also adoption as alternative.

Italian law bars same sex couples from adopting domestically or internationally.

Since 2004 Italian law has barred lesbians from receiving artificial insemination. Such treatment is reserved for married heterosexuals only

it seems strange that someone from Italy so involved with the topic wouldn't know that

 

[Estro Felino]

Italian law bars same sex couples from adopting domestically or internationally.

That's a relief.
I mean... God wanted me to be childless too... I don't see why I should be the only one to renounce children.
Swallow your own tears, my teacher used to tell me.

Since 2004 Italian law has barred lesbians from receiving artificial insemination. Such treatment is reserved for married heterosexuals only.

There are also lesbians who date some desperate incel to get pregnant.
Which is utterly sad...and squalid.
but for women becoming mothers it's super, super easy.

You don't need a doctor for an artificial insemination...btw.

it seems strange that someone from Italy so involved with the topic wouldn't know that

I did know that.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not sure that's relevant to the moral issue of what should be expected of infertile couples. Otherwise, you'd be making the argument that even fertile couples should be expected to go for adoption in the first instance.

Me neither as it happens, but I don't think we want to get in to the area of criminalising things just because you or I don't understand other people's desires for them.

It's a bit more than than. The implication is that it is the primary motive for the government. I don't think it's legitimate for you to echo what could be secondary or even flawed justifications without considering that potential motive.

They can at the moment (though not necessarily as easily as mixed-sex couples) but if the motive behind this change is about targeting same-sex couples, who is to say that won't be extended to those other options? And would you really object if that were to happen?

Here an Italian gay couple who have a child together.
Actually... they went to Canada and asked a Canadian woman to be the surrogate mother.
Either man is the biological father.

I don't understand why they couldn't renounce parenthood.
You can't have it all in life.

 

[Wu Wei]

It's a deterrent.

Outside of Italy it isn't

 

[Estro Felino]

Outside of Italy it isn't

Maybe you didn't get the law.
They can do the practice abroad...but if they return with the product (the baby) they will be prosecuted.

 

[HonestJoe]

I don't understand why they couldn't renounce parenthood.

Of course they could. The question is why the state needs to force them (along with all same-sex and infertile couples) to under threat of criminal prosecution.

 

[Estro Felino]

Of course they could. The question is why the state needs to force them (along with all same-sex and infertile couples) to under threat of criminal prosecution.

Homosexual couples are very lucky because sex doesn't produce unwanted pregnancies.
That is why I believe God loves homosexuals even more...because they don't procreate irresponsibly as many heterosexuals do.


And still the grass is always greener on the other side...so they envy heterosexuals so much that they want to have a baby through deviated processes.
And this is not something adults do. You become an adult when you stop throwing a tantrum and when you renounce something.

 

[Argentbear]

That's a relief.
I mean... God wanted me to be childless too... I don't see why I should be the only one to renounce children.
Swallow your own tears, my teacher used to tell me.



There are also lesbians who date some desperate incel to get pregnant.
Which is utterly sad...and squalid.
but for women becoming mothers it's super, super easy.

yet you seem incapable of getting pregnant