Italy's far right set to win election

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Far-right leader Giorgia Meloni has won Italy's election, according to exit polls, and is on course to become the country's first female prime minister.

A Meloni-led Italy will alarm much of Europe with Russia at war in Ukraine.
..she leads a party rooted in a post-war movement that rose out of Benito Mussolini's fascists.

I wonder what the Pope makes of it all.

Fascinating -- back to fascism.

Oddly, Italian has no way to translate "Il Duce" (Mussolini) into the femine.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Kingdom of Italy was governed by the National Fascist Party from 1922 to 1943 with Benito Mussolini as prime minister. The Italian Fascists imposed authoritarian rule and crushed political and intellectual opposition, while promoting economic modernization, traditional social values and a rapprochement with the Roman Catholic Church.
Fascist Italy (1922–1943) - Wikipedia

I'm sorry, is this 100 years ago? What does this have anything to do with now?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Bravo, Italy!

So you like fascists, then?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm sorry, is this 100 years ago? What does this have anything to do with now?

A sign, maybe?
I am implying that the War in Europe is not going away.
In fact, it is going to get worse .. MUCH WORSE
World war III is quite possible.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you like fascists, then?

If they were Fascist, they wouldn't let a woman lead them. Fascists tend to believe in strict gender roles. There are no female Fascist leaders. Stop throwing around words you don't know the meaning of. They're just a conservative party, but conservative itself is now "fascism" these days.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If they were Fascist, they wouldn't let a woman lead them..

Don't you believe it. There are men (hiding) behind her.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm sorry, is this 100 years ago? What does this have anything to do with now?

The ideologies bear enough similarities to cause some alarm. As far as I can see, that a part of history took place almost a century ago isn't the sole determinant of its relevance to the present.

Lenin's Great Purge and Mao's Great Leap Forward are also distant historical events, yet I don't believe we should neglect the lessons they offer us about the dangers of authoritarianism that may apply to the present day.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If they were Fascist, they wouldn't let a woman lead them. Fascists tend to believe in strict gender roles. There are no female Fascist leaders. Stop throwing around words you don't know the meaning of. They're just a conservative party, but conservative itself is now "fascism" these days.

It seems to me that labeling such dangerous ideologies and policies as "just a conservative party" actually gives ammunition to those who assert that conservatism, as a whole, is a dangerous movement. I disagree with that notion because I think conservatism has much less malevolent aspects than the varieties found in the policies espoused by the likes of Marine Le Pen and now this Italian PM, but if I believed they were representative of conservatism as a whole, I would have a much starker view of the right wing in general.

 

[The Hammer]

Neither marriage nor immigration are rights.

Their not? At least irt marriage?

Certain groups of people should be denied the ability to marry? Because it's not guaranteed?

Rather antiquated of you.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If they were Fascist, they wouldn't let a woman lead them. Fascists tend to believe in strict gender roles. There are no female Fascist leaders. Stop throwing around words you don't know the meaning of. They're just a conservative party, but conservative itself is now "fascism" these days.

"Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy."

Would you please be so kind as to point out to me where gender exists in that definition?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy."

Would you please be so kind as to point out to me where gender exists in that definition?

It's part of the worldview. "Belief in a natural social hierarchy". Women are to fulfill homemaking duties and bear children. Fascism is a very macho, militaristic ideology that worships youthfulness and war. It is inspired by the Roman Empire (which is were that salute came from) and most Fascist movements were also very religiously conservative (aside from the German and Italian variants, oddly). So these people were not feminists. Don't you know anything about the policies Fascist governments promoted? The Third Reich gave medals to women for having lots of children and financial kickbacks to families.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's part of the worldview. "Belief in a natural social hierarchy". Women are to fulfill homemaking duties and bear children. Fascism is a very macho, militaristic ideology that worships youthfulness and war. It is inspired by the Roman Empire (which is were that salute came from) and most Fascist movements were also very religiously conservative (aside from the German and Italian variants, oddly). So these people were not feminists. Don't you know anything about the policies Fascist governments promoted? The Third Reich gave medals to women for having lots of children and financial kickbacks to families.

You are talking about people, individuals at a time and place in history. I am talking about an ideology. I gave you the definition of facism. It doesn't discuss who does kitchen duty in the family, nor who stays home with the kids.

You are adding notions of your own, and pretending that they are part of the ideology. Look up every definition you can find -- Britannica, dictionaries, political theories -- and you will not find one definition that claims that fascism presupposes only male rulers. Not one. That is your own fabrication.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are talking about people, individuals at a time and place in history. I am talking about an ideology. I gave you the definition of facism. It doesn't discuss who does kitchen duty in the family, nor who stays home with the kids.

You are adding notions of your own, and pretending that they are part of the ideology. Look up every definition you can find -- Britannica, dictionaries, political theories -- and you will not find one definition that claims that fascism presupposes only male rulers. Not one. That is your own fabrication.

Are you confused? I am talking about the ideology. I know more about this ideology than you do, with your dictionaries and encyclopedias. Have you read Fascist literature? Read academic books about it? Spoken to Fascists? It's like thinking you know about Communism but not knowing the Communist Manifesto or read any Communist thinkers. You could even just look up what sort of family and gender policies these regimes imposed, ffs. It's not that difficult. But pretend you know better because you skimmed the opening paragraph of Wikipedia or whatever.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Are you confused? I am talking about the ideology. I know more about this ideology than you do, with your dictionaries and encyclopedias. Have you read Fascist literature? Read academic books about it? Spoken to Fascists? It's like thinking you know about Communism but not knowing the Communist Manifesto or read any Communist thinkers. You could even just look up what sort of family and gender policies these regimes imposed, ffs. It's not that difficult. But pretend you know better because you skimmed the opening paragraph of Wikipedia or whatever.

Do continue. If you know so much, show me how a female leader cannot be a fascist, because that's what you're claiming.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do continue. If you know so much, show me how a female leader cannot be a fascist, because that's what you're claiming.

I am saying that a Fascist movement would not be female-led, because they are too sexist for that. Fascism upholds strict essentialist views of gender. Can you understand me now?

And I see no evidence that this woman or her party is Fascist. So this little aside here is a distraction from that fact.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You are talking about people, individuals at a time and place in history. I am talking about an ideology. I gave you the definition of facism. It doesn't discuss who does kitchen duty in the family, nor who stays home with the kids.

You are adding notions of your own, and pretending that they are part of the ideology. Look up every definition you can find -- Britannica, dictionaries, political theories -- and you will not find one definition that claims that fascism presupposes only male rulers. Not one. That is your own fabrication.

Realistically, I don't think the label itself is what matters most in this case: much of what far-right ideology and social conservatism entail seems to me markedly harmful whether or not we label it "fascism."

There's a reason prevalence of social conservatism is declining among younger generations or just society in general in multiple countries, including some conservative ones such as Saudi Arabia--which used to be far more conservative just several years ago. It's simply not a worldview that can easily withstand scrutiny under much of modern knowledge and increased global interconnection.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Realistically, I don't think the label itself is what matters most in this case: much of what far-right ideology and social conservatism entail seems to me markedly harmful whether or not we label it "fascism."

There's a reason prevalence of social conservatism is declining among younger generations or just society in general in multiple countries, including some conservative ones such as Saudi Arabia--which used to be far more conservative just several years ago. It's simply not a worldview that can easily withstand scrutiny under much of modern knowledge and increased global interconnection.

But isn't social conservative all about the state making the rules about who you should be, how you should live, who you should love, what you should like, how you should worship (or not)?

Why on earth would anybody with an operating brain think it good to submit themselves to that? Mystifies me, I'll tell you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But isn't social conservative all about the state making the rules about who you should be, how you should live, who you should love, what you should like, how you should worship (or not)?

Why on earth would anybody with an operating brain think it good to submit themselves to that? Mystifies me, I'll tell you.

It's quite complicated. I think factors such as upbringing, economic status, education, overall life circumstances, and individual differences and experiences can all play a role in what different people believe. I don't subscribe to the idea that intelligent people have to shun specific beliefs: in my opinion, we generally have no more control over what we find convincing than we do our eye color or handedness. Nobody can will themselves, on demand, into being convinced by a specific view or abandoning a view they already have.

I wasn't able to keep believing in religion despite my strongest efforts to do so, because I just didn't find it convincing. Conversely, I couldn't stop believing the sky was blue even if I tried.

 

[Left Coast]

They're not exactly far right, they're just standard social conservatives. I align with many of their views.

Brothers of Italy is anti-immigrant, anti-gay marriage, and pro the traditional family unit, with leader Giorgia Meloni promoting a public image herself as a “woman, mother, Christian” whose mission is to defend “God, country and family”.

Many of the party’s policies are pro-natalist and aimed at combatting Italy’s plummeting birthrate, which Meloni has described as “a true emergency”. They include increased child benefits; reducing VAT rates on nappies, baby bottles and formula; free childcare provision, and incentivising employers to hire new mothers.

Political cheat sheet: Understanding the Brothers of Italy (thelocal.it)

This is standard right-wing stuff. It's not exactly extreme.

Idk what the left expects the right to be these days, but this is not 'far right'.

From a quick Google search, Italy has a center-right party, Forza Italia, like most European democracies.

Forza Italia (2013) - Wikipedia

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They're not exactly far right, they're just standard social conservatives. I align with many of their views.

Brothers of Italy is anti-immigrant, anti-gay marriage, and pro the traditional family unit, with leader Giorgia Meloni promoting a public image herself as a “woman, mother, Christian” whose mission is to defend “God, country and family”.

Many of the party’s policies are pro-natalist and aimed at combatting Italy’s plummeting birthrate, which Meloni has described as “a true emergency”. They include increased child benefits; reducing VAT rates on nappies, baby bottles and formula; free childcare provision, and incentivising employers to hire new mothers.

Political cheat sheet: Understanding the Brothers of Italy (thelocal.it)

This is standard right-wing stuff. It's not exactly extreme.

Idk what the left expects the right to be these days, but this is not 'far right'.

That's a good article, for the most part.

I think another thing that is being missed here is that it's not so uncommon for Italians to have at least some fond opinions of Mussolini and the Fascist era, even if they are not themselves subscribers to that ideology. You find similar attitudes in Spain towards Franco and in other countries. It's strange to us in Anglo countries because we just tend to think of Germany and Hitler is almost universally reviled in our culture. Our arrogance and ignorance makes us think it's the same in all cultures.

The article also describes the party as "post-Fascist", not currently Fascist. It's not rare for European political parties to start out one way and then become moderate or even mainstream.

There is definitely a classist and corporate media bias to insult non-corporate backed populist groups/leaders as "far-right" to scare people from voting for the approved candidate, as well, when most of their support is from working class voters with no big name backing. They are demonizing the "little people", the same as how "white trash" is demonized by elitist leftists in the US. These people are really suffering and they do not care as they bloviate from their collapsing ivory towers.