Italy's far right set to win election

[pearl]

Anyway I can't believe the amount of people calling Meloni a fascist. It's not like she spent half her life in fascist movements.

BANNON: She's for God, her country, and family. That doesn't seem all that radical. That doesn't seem all that radical to me. They're in full meltdown. That makes her a Christian nationalist. The worst of the fascists, right?
STEVE BANNON (HOST): This is the rise of Christian nationalism. You watch.
Steve Bannon and Matt Schlapp celebrate a party with neo-fascist roots winning power in Italy | Media Matters for America

 

[Rival]

I mean, that "they" are sending "us" their "worst". That immigrants are harming us and refuse to participate in society beyond creating ghettos.

I'm fine with whatever views you have about marriage, weird as they seem to me, but I don't think it is reasonable to demand other people are refused their own marital arrangement because you don't like it. You can't impose your preferences on others and hide it behind the label, "social conservative".

'You can have your own political views, but don't actually try bringing them into politics.'

No thanks.

The idea of marriage for millenia was that women were possessions of their husbands, who were free to beat, rape and even murder them with little to no risk of punisment. If your husband suggested that they should have the right to smack you around because they put a ring on it, would you accept their right to do so because they are socially conservative?

Conservatives conserve what we think is good and discard what we think is bad. We want slow social change, not revolution.

 

[Estro Felino]

BANNON: She's for God, her country, and family. That doesn't seem all that radical. That doesn't seem all that radical to me. They're in full meltdown. That makes her a Christian nationalist. The worst of the fascists, right?
STEVE BANNON (HOST): This is the rise of Christian nationalism. You watch.
Steve Bannon and Matt Schlapp celebrate a party with neo-fascist roots winning power in Italy | Media Matters for America

He had moved to Rome...I don't understand why he returned to the US.
We need people like him here.

 

[metis]

He had moved to Rome...I don't understand why he returned to the US.
We need people like him here.

Why do you need more self-centered morally bankrupt people in Italy?

 

[Debater Slayer]

'You can have your own political views, but don't actually try bringing them into politics.'

No thanks.

If "bringing them into politics" entails imposing certain ideological and religious views on others and interfering in their private lives merely because of personal preference for said views, then yes, they shouldn't be brought into politics. This is exactly the definition of separation of religion and the state; just because a given lawmaker or politician may have certain political views themselves doesn't mean they have to impose those on the entire population.

I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate being forced by the state to wear Islamic attire or hide your religious practice for fear of persecution. This is the same thing but with the far right attempting to impose their beliefs on others who don't share them.

 

[Rival]

If "bringing them into politics" entails imposing certain ideological and religious views on others and interfering in their private lives merely because of personal preference for said views, then yes, they shouldn't be brought into politics. This is exactly the definition of separation of religion and the state; just because a religious lawmaker or politician may have certain political views themselves doesn't mean they have to impose those on the entire population.

I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate being forced by the state to wear Islamic attire or hide your religious practice for fear of persecution. This is the same thing but with the far right attempting to impose their beliefs on others who don't share them.

What if it's not religious? These views may be majority religious but are not totally. Carl Benjamin is an atheist with very similar views. We just believe it is what makes a decent society, religious or not. If someone imposed a dress code on me I'd follow through such things as long as I still maintain my own privacy in my own home etc. Societies have rules whether you like them or not.

 

[pearl]

Why do you need more self-centered morally bankrupt people in Italy?

He backs the conservative Catholic trads.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What if it's not religious? These views may be majority religious but are not totally. Carl Benjamin is an atheist with very similar views. We just believe it is what makes a decent society, religious or not. If someone imposed a dress code on me I'd follow through such things as long as I still maintain my own privacy in my own home etc. Societies have rules whether you like them or not.

China has rules too. So does North Korea. There are overly restrictive, heavily prejudiced rules that don't stem from religious origins, sure, but the same logic of separating personal views from lawmaking concerning the private lives of citizens still applies.

That societies have rules says nothing about the ethical, practical, or logical value of those rules. If a bloc of politicians want to take away a freedom a group has, such as the ability to marry whoever they love, then they need to provide practical reasons as to why, not just a statement of personal preference or a heavily subjective endorsement such as "it makes a decent society."

When I think of useful government, I think of a structured entity working to preserve and advance the common interests of all segments of the population. I don't think of ideologically bombastic slogans or appeals to tradition that run roughshod over the freedoms of a subset of the population under the banner of national identity or social cohesion despite being underpinned by inherently divisive and exclusionary views.

 

[Lyndon]

the biggest characteristic of right wing governments is persecution of the workers, and support of the wealthy, just the opposite of socialism

 

[Yerda]

'You can have your own political views, but don't actually try bringing them into politics.'

No thanks.

No, you're special and should be allowed to dictate other people's marital affairs, where they can live, how they identify. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Conservatives conserve what we think is good and discard what we think is bad. We want slow social change, not revolution.

So we can throw out the bad, just not too quickly? People waited centuries for the freedom to marry whoever they love. That too fast for you?

Societies have rules whether you like them or not.

The rules that you want to change?

 

[Sand Dancer]

'You can have your own political views, but don't actually try bringing them into politics.'

No thanks.


Conservatives conserve what we think is good and discard what we think is bad. We want slow social change, not revolution.

Slow change is not wham-bam, let's overturn Roe. That caused people to have to scramble and rearrange their lives. That's not really very nice.

 

[Rival]

Slow change is not wham-bam, let's overturn Roe. That caused people to have to scramble and rearrange their lives. That's not really very nice.

Well, I'm not sure this is true. Groups had been trying to overturn it since its beginning nearly half a century ago, so I'd say it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise tbh.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think that the three pillars of this victory, God, Fatherland and Family mean this:
That public servants need to be loyal to the Fatherland because God is watching them.

And all those Freemasons, Bankers, Financial group that the lounge-loving and carefree Left-wing has been pandering, do not serve the Fatherland.
This victory is the demonstration that all these wealthy people are powerless. The people stands.

 

[Aštra’el]

“God. Fatherland. Family.”

I resonate with this phrase. Deeply.

 

[Rival]

Interesting,

 

[Estro Felino]

Giorgia Meloni at a rally. A LGBT activist gives her a rainbow flag. She tells him "I do respect your view, we disagree with each other but we do respect each other. Let us applaud this courageous man. He deserves it because he defends what he believes in. As I have always defended what I believe in"
Is that fascist?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

“God. Fatherland. Family.”

I resonate with this phrase. Deeply.

You realize that this is an old, fascist slogan, right?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Giorgia Meloni at a rally. A LGBT activist gives her a rainbow flag. She tells him "I do respect your view, we don't disagree with each other but we do respect each other. Let us applaud this courageous man. He deserves it because he defends what he believes in. As I have always defended what I believe in"
Is that fascist?

She's a politician. They generally don't announce their support for fascism out loud in public.

What are her actual beliefs with regards to LGBT rights?

"On social issues, Meloni opposes abortion, euthanasia, and laws that recognise same-sex marriage or civil unions.[88] At a rally at the Piazza del Popolo in October 2019, she spoke against same-sex parenting; her speech became viral on Italian social media platforms.[89] Meloni is also opposed to the DDL Zan, an anti-homophobia law, declaring that in Italy "there is no homophobia".[90] She had also said that she would "rather not have a gay child" during a Le Iene interview, an Italian television show.[91][92] Meloni is supportive of the anti-gender movement, a belief born in the mid-1990s in the circles of the Opus Dei in order to condemn any social position other than that approved by the Catholic Church, which oppose gender studies.[93][94][95] She is supportive of changing the Constitution of Italy in order to make it illegal for same-sex couples to adopt children.[96] In March 2018, Meloni criticized The Walt Disney Company for the decision to represent a gay couple in the musical fantasy movie Frozen II, writing on her social networks: "Enough! We are sick of it! Take your hands off the children."[97][98][99]"
SOURCE: Giorgia Meloni - Wikipedia

Yeah, getting a guy with a flag up on stage and performatively declaring "I respect your views!" doesn't exactly negate a history of anti-LGBT policy and rhetoric. A fascist telling Jewish people in public that they "respect their point of view" does not negate them also calling for Jewish people to be classed as second-class citizens or take away their rights.

Pay attention to the policies and the rhetoric. Not the performance. Even the Nazis in pre-third Reich Germany did stuff to appeal to populist left-wing movements, claiming to be pro-union, pro-regulation, anti-business, even going so far as to call themselves socialist. And we all know just how socialist they turned out to be.

 

[Estro Felino]

She's a politician. They generally don't announce their support for fascism out loud in public.

What are her actual beliefs with regards to LGBT rights?

"On social issues, Meloni opposes abortion, euthanasia, and laws that recognise same-sex marriage or civil unions.[88] At a rally at the Piazza del Popolo in October 2019, she spoke against same-sex parenting; her speech became viral on Italian social media platforms.[89] Meloni is also opposed to the DDL Zan, an anti-homophobia law, declaring that in Italy "there is no homophobia".[90] She had also said that she would "rather not have a gay child" during a Le Iene interview, an Italian television show.[91][92] Meloni is supportive of the anti-gender movement, a belief born in the mid-1990s in the circles of the Opus Dei in order to condemn any social position other than that approved by the Catholic Church, which oppose gender studies.[93][94][95] She is supportive of changing the Constitution of Italy in order to make it illegal for same-sex couples to adopt children.[96] In March 2018, Meloni criticized The Walt Disney Company for the decision to represent a gay couple in the musical fantasy movie Frozen II, writing on her social networks: "Enough! We are sick of it! Take your hands off the children."[97][98][99]"
SOURCE: Giorgia Meloni - Wikipedia

Yeah, getting a guy with a flag up on stage and performatively declaring "I respect your views!" doesn't exactly negate a history of anti-LGBT policy and rhetoric. A fascist telling Jewish people in public that they "respect their point of view" does not negate them also calling for Jewish people to be classed as second-class citizens or take away their rights.

Pay attention to the policies and the rhetoric. Not the performance.

There are countless LGBTs who voted for the right,
I guess that most Italians agree that indoctrinating prepubescents with LGBT issues and propaganda is wrong.
We are speaking of prepubescents. That's why she won.

 

[Estro Felino]

You realize that this is an old, fascist slogan, right?

It is surely a Nationalist motto. But not a fascist one, since it doesn't imply totalitarianism, imperialism or similar.