Italy's far right set to win election

[ImmortalFlame]

There are countless LGBTs who voted for the right,

I would like to see those statistics.

I guess that most Italians agree that indoctrinating prepubescents with LGBT issues and propaganda is wrong.

You mean, simply depicting gay people in popular media and allowing gay couples to marry eachother and adopt children? Please explain to me how that is indoctrination or propaganda.

We are speaking of prepubescents. That's why she won.

She won because Italy still likes fascists.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It is surely a Nationalist motto. But not a fascist one, since it doesn't imply totalitarianism, imperialism or similar.

Again, you touch on the surface without analyzing any further.

The phrase was popularized by the Italian fascist movement in the 19th century. It is explicitly a fascist slogan.

 

[Rival]

I'd like to know the definition of Fascism folks are using for this thread...

Apparently, it means 'anything that restricts my ability to do x.'

 

[Estro Felino]

Again, you touch on the surface without analyzing any further.

The phrase was popularized by the Italian fascist movement in the 19th century. It is explicitly a fascist slogan.

Fascism started after the Bolshevik Revolution when socialists led by Mussolini (advised by his mistress, the Italo-Russian socialist Balabanoff) distanced themselves from the Marxists of Russia.
Then the Nationalists Mussolini had joined during and after WW1 became their allies. That's how fascism was born, through a merging.

 

[Estro Felino]

You mean, simply depicting gay people in popular media and allowing gay couples to marry eachother and adopt children? Please explain to me how that is indoctrination or propaganda.

What they do in the US. Drag queens in kindergartens and primary schools. That's indoctrination, in my humble opinion.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I'd like to know the definition of Fascism folks are using for this thread...

It's generally characterized by highly nationalistic rhetoric, coupled with attacking or scapegoating of other groups (usually minorities), a cult of personality around leadership, and a fierce adherence to or call for the return of an often mythicized history. This also tends to be followed by strict authoritarian control justified through moral panics around "degeneracy".

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Fascism started after the Bolshevik Revolution when socialists led by Mussolini (advised by his mistress, the Italo-Russian socialist Balabanoff) distanced themselves from the Marxists of Russia.
Then the Nationalists Mussolini had joined during and after WW1 became their allies. That's how fascism was born, through a merging.

This has literally nothing to do with what I said.

 

[Estro Felino]

This has literally nothing to do with what I said.

You said Nineteenth century. No. 20th

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What they do in the US. Drag queens in kindergartens and primary schools. That's indoctrination, in my humble opinion.

So you're just going to completely ignore the subject and jump to something else?

How is clamping down on simply depicting gay people in popular media, the rights for gay couples to marry, or the rights of gay people to adopt, anything to do with indoctrination?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You said Nineteenth century. No. 20th

My mistake.

Can you address the argument?

 

[Rival]

It's generally characterized by highly nationalistic rhetoric, coupled with attacking or scapegoating of other groups (usually minorities), a cult of personality around leadership, and a fierce adherence to or call for the return of an often mythicized history. This also tends to be followed by strict authoritarian control justified through moral panics around "degeneracy".

That's not the definition I'm aware of.

Fascism includes no allowance for opposition parties and has total state control, no dissenting views allowed; the main hinges of Fascism.

I don't see that here.

 

[Estro Felino]

So you're just going to completely ignore the subject and jump to something else?

How is clamping down on simply depicting gay people in popular media, the rights for gay couples to marry, or the rights of gay people to adopt, anything to do with indoctrination?

My studies are juridical. I didn't study pedagogy, psychology, sociology.
In my humble opinion as a non-expert, I think that gay couples can be a loving family. So I am for.
But I think that straight couples should have the priority on the adoption list.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That's not the definition I'm aware of.

Fascism includes no allowance for opposition parties and has total state control, no dissenting views allowed; the main hinges of Fascism.

I don't see that here.

So you think any party which doesn't advocate for a removal of all other parties can't possibly be fascist?

You're confusing fascism with totalitarianism. While they are basically hand-in-hand, fascism is a bit more of a malleable beast. Fascists don't often declare their intention to establish authoritarian control outright, especially in democratic countries where such a thing tends to get you and your party removed from the ballot.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

My studies are juridical. I didn't study pedagogy, psychology, sociology.
In my humble opinion as a non-expert, I think that gay couples can be a loving family. So I am for.
But I think that straight couples should have the priority on the adoption list.

So you think gay people should be second class citizens.

Why?

And you still have yet to even address what I have said properly. Meloni's position is that gay people should not be allowed to adopt or marry, and that depicting gay people in popular media at all is wrong. You defended this by saying that you are against indoctrination. Since none of these things are indoctrination even in the slightest, clearly you and Meloni differ on this matter, correct?

 

[Rival]

So you think any party which doesn't advocate for a removal of all other parties can't possibly be fascist?

Yes.

I'm using Cambridge FASCISM | meaning, definition in Cambridge English Dictionary

and Oxford fascism noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

They both state explicitly that opposition is not allowed.

 

[Estro Felino]

So you think gay people should be second class citizens.

Why?

And you still have yet to even address what I have said properly. Meloni's position is that gay people should not be allowed to adopt or marry, and that depicting gay people in popular media at all is wrong. You defended this by saying that you are against indoctrination. Since none of these things are indoctrination even in the slightest, clearly you and Meloni differ on this matter, correct?

Yes, we slightly differ...but I respect the vote of my own people. It's conservatism. Not fascism.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes.

I'm using Cambridge FASCISM | meaning, definition in Cambridge English Dictionary

Go back to my post - I updated it with more nuance.

Again, a party doesn't have to outright state its intent to remove all political opposition to clearly be fascist.

 

[Rival]

Go back to my post - I updated it with more nuance.

Again, a party doesn't have to outright state its intent to remove all political opposition to clearly be fascist.

I still don't get how you're getting from 'party wants to promote traditional family' to 'party wants to ban all opposition.'

I mean that is a huge stretch.

It's as though some folks believe social conservatism inevitably leads to Fascism. This is the same as me saying Leftism inevitably leads to gulags.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, we slightly differ...but I respect the vote of my own people. It's conservatism. Not fascism.

A policy can be far-right. Fascism is about the big picture. In my view, and the views of many others, Giorgia Meloni is overall a fascist, not as a result of one or two policies, but as a result of numerous policies, rhetoric and statements throughout her political career.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I still don't get how you're getting from 'party wants to promote traditional family' to 'party wants to ban all opposition.'

Simplifying and isolating one position sells short my argument. It's based on the actual views espoused, as well as use of rhetoric and history. "Promoting traditional family" is also a classic euphemism used by extremist groups the world over - depending who you're talking to, it can mean basically whatever they want it to, and almost always tends to mean "any family in the 'in group'" as a-posed to "literally any other ethnic or social group". And, as I have explained, fascism is not solely defined by totalitarianism, but is a complex and malleable ideology that often cloaks intent behind rhetoric and insinuation.

I mean that is a huge stretch.

It's as though some folks believe social conservatism inevitably leads to Fascism. This is the same as me saying Leftism inevitably leads to gulags.

Meloni has engaged with numerous fascist red flags - embrace of mythicizied tradition, targeting of minorities, use of moral panics to generate manufactured consent. These are all strong indications of fascist intent. And that's ignoring the embrace of outright fascist talking points and slogans.