It's a green truck -- mismanagement of verses from the Tanakh

[74x12]

If the Prophecy has a dual application, then you have to show it from the text. Where in Hosea 11 is there evidence that this is a messianic prophecy?

Any mention of the Son of God is a really good immediate indication of a Messianic prophecy. Whether hidden or obvious is another story. This one is admittedly hidden but revealed in hindsight.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Every sentence of every document, religious or not, should be read in context. There is never an excuse for taking out of context.

I used to have a bookmarked a link that showed how twelve different times the Bible says"there is no god" if one is willing to lift verses, or in this case parts of verses, out of context. I would usually use that against science deniers that quoted scientific works out of context. Quote mining is wrong, even if one does so to support a belief in the Bible.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But my point is that we can learn about one scripture by comparing it to other scriptures. They will explain each other.

It DEPENDS. two verses within a given speech will help to explain each other. And sometimes one scripture will be directly alluded to. But you can't look at the word salvation in the book of psalms and expect it to automatically mean the same thing as salvation in Paul's epistles.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Any mention of the Son of God is a really good immediate indication of a Messianic prophecy. Whether hidden or obvious is another story. This one is admittedly hidden but revealed in hindsight.

I think the ony time "Son of God" is used in the Tanakh is in Daniels visions, and it is a reference t the People of Israel.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I used to have a bookmarked a link that showed how twelve different times the Bible says"there is no god" if one is willing to lift verses, or in this case parts of verses, out of context. I would usually use that against science deniers that quoted scientific works out of context. Quote mining is wrong, even if one does so to support a belief in the Bible.

I like the expression "quote mining." I think though, that there is no outright deception going on. This foggy kind of thinking that lacks reading things in context really does have them believing these gazillion messianic prophecies exist in the Tanakh.

 

[74x12]

I think the ony time "Son of God" is used in the Tanakh is in Daniels visions, and it is a reference t the People of Israel.

I think that's "Son of man" rather than "Son of God". And it refers to the "saints of the most High". However we know Jesus is at the head. Do you understand the concept of Israel being one body and having a head?

What about Psalm 89:28 and Exodus 4:22?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I like the expression "quote mining." I think though, that there is no outright deception going on. This foggy kind of thinking that lacks reading things in context really does have them believing these gazillion messianic prophecies exist in the Tanakh.

I have seen too many people accuse others of lying here, and on other forums. As you implied, lying includes an intent to deceive. If someone quote mines to support a poor interpretation of the Bible it is usually not done to deceive, there was no intent to be dishonest. People simply do not understand the errors that they make in doing so.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think that's "Son of man" rather than "Son of God". And it refers to the "saints of the most High". However we know Jesus is at the head. Do you understand the concept of Israel being one body and having a head?

What about Psalm 89:28 and Exodus 4:22?

Yes, you ar4 right, it is Son of Man. I cant think of any time at all that the Tanakh uses the phrase Son of God.

Yes, God does call Israel his first born son, and uses the same metaphor with David. I'm lost. What is the point here.

 

[sealchan]

The whole point of Matthew, IMO, was to justify Jesus as the Messiah. Basically taking passages out of the OT out of context. It's early Christian apologetics. Not to be rude, but then to take this as the Word of God?

When I studied the early chapters of Matthew I was mostly not impressed with the links to the Jewish Testament. They did seem to be taken out of context and stretched for the most part.

 

[Notaclue]

I think the ony time "Son of God" is used in the Tanakh is in Daniels visions, and it is a reference t the People of Israel.

Is.48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way thatthou shouldest go.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Who do you think is talking here.

Thanks.

 

[Kenny]

It also means you disagree with Christian scholars, who fully acknowledge that Hosea 11:1 is about the Exodus.

If the Prophecy has a dual application, then you have to show it from the text. Where in Hosea 11 is there evidence that this is a messianic prophecy?

Like you said:

I'm Jewish and even I know you can be a Jew and be irrational.

Even Christian scholars can be irrational. But the VAST majority agree with what Matthew said..

 

[Fool]

Here is the second of the three topics I've picked.





I almost never read links. It's because I come on for conversation. If I want to surf the web, I can do that on my own. However, it was clear that you felt overwhelmed by the length of the post and used a link to try to fit in an answer when you probably felt it would take you a good half hour to type one out. So I made an exception.

The GIST of the link can be found in these words:
"Likewise, I don’t believe Matthew thought Jesus’ flight to Egypt was predicted in Hosea 11:1. But I do believe that Matthew thought Jesus’ flight to and return from Egypt was filling up Hosea 11:1."

My response is "baloney" -- Matthew was claiming that Hosea 11:1 was a prophecy and that it came true. This idea of "filling up" and shadows and stuff is just poetic stuff made up by those who have faced the truth about the obvious mismanagement of text in the Christian Scriptures, and who are desperate to come up with some way, any way, to work around it, no matter how obvious the denial is.

Basically what I'm saying is, you can point to the truck and say, "well, it's really a shade of turqoise," and the world is still going to roll their eyes and say, "It's a stupid green truck."

“Whoever does not see God everywhere does not see Him anywhere.” – Kotzker Rebbe


or simply tat tvam asi, nuk pu nuk.


ahea asher ahea, ahmi yat ahmi

 

[74x12]

Yes, you ar4 right, it is Son of Man. I cant think of any time at all that the Tanakh uses the phrase Son of God.

Yes, God does call Israel his first born son, and uses the same metaphor with David. I'm lost. What is the point here.

There is only 1 first born. You have 2 firstborns which doesn't make sense.

 

[Paula Eilene]

In the Biblical sense of the word a prophecy is not always a prediction. In fact it should understood to mean any message or utterance delivered by a prophet that is from God. So in fact this should be considered a prophecy or message from God.

Secondly you don't get to decide what is and isn't a future prediction. God does. So far, all you're doing is asserting that this cannot be a future prediction as well as a history. But, if God decided that His Son would be called out of Egypt 2 or 3 times or any number of times; then that is God's business. You can't argue with God.

It was Jacob himself who was first named Israel. Therefore we can conclude that Jacob is the head of Israel. No one is properly Israel unless they are born from Jacob's lineage. However, Jacob as you know; died in Egypt and indeed he was called out of Egypt but only as a corpse. They took his body and buried it in Canaan. Again fulfilling Hosea's prophecy. But there is a catch. Just as Jacob was called out of Egypt as a corpse; so to are those who are born from Jacob going to die. As it is written "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

So to be more clear. There is no hope of resurrection in Jacob. But there is hope of resurrection in Jesus Christ. Therefore, we don't put hope for ourselves in the Israel that is passing back into dust. (all flesh is grass ... Isaiah 40:6) But we put our hope with the Israel that will live forever. And indeed this Israel begins in Jesus(He is the head of Israel) and even Jacob himself when he is resurrected(and he will be) will only be resurrected through Jesus Christ. So that Jesus is the eternal head of Israel. The true born Son of God. The first born Son of the resurrection.

"I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (This is prophecy of when Jesus rose from the dead and became the firstborn Son from the dead.)

This is all predicted in the Tanakh as it says in Isaiah 26:19 that your dead (people) will live(it's plural) my dead body they rise(the body is singular tense in Hebrew). So we know that this "body" that is singular tense is Jesus Christ and all who are resurrected are resurrected through Him.

As Jesus says:
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (John 11:25)

 

[74x12]

Okay, anything to say Paula?

 

[nPeace]

Exodus 4:22 Then tell Pharaoh that this is what the LORD says: 'Israel is My firstborn son,
Israel is referred to as God's firstborn son. Why?
There seems to be some significance to this.
Was the creator saying something that would be understood to have future application?
This seem to follow a pattern of the God of prophecy. It's a pattern we see throughout the Hebrew texts.

 

[Kenny]

Exodus 4:22 Then tell Pharaoh that this is what the LORD says: 'Israel is My firstborn son,
Israel is referred to as God's firstborn son. Why?
There seems to be some significance to this.
Was the creator saying something that would be understood to have future application?
This seem to follow a pattern of the God of prophecy. It's a pattern we see throughout the Hebrew texts.

That's a good question and, to be frank, I wouldn't know as there isn't anything that literally explains it like Matthew does on Hosea 11:1. So it ends up being just a theological position of opinions.

It does seem to be a pattern and certainly with Jesus having the designation makes one want to dig in deeper.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is.48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way thatthou shouldest go.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Who do you think is talking here.

Thanks.

This is a no brainer here. Isaiah is speaking, for God, to Israel.What is your point?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There is only 1 first born. You have 2 firstborns which doesn't make sense.

Nonsense. You can use the same metaphor more then once if you are writing more than one text. The Bible is a collection of multiple texts with multiple authors, some of them speaking for God, others not.

 

[nPeace]

That's a good question and, to be frank, I wouldn't know as there isn't anything that literally explains it like Matthew does on Hosea 11:1. So it ends up being just a theological position of opinions.

It does seem to be a pattern and certainly with Jesus having the designation makes one want to dig in deeper.

Oh, my questions were really rhetorical.
I know that much of what applies to the physical nation of Israel, applies also to spiritual Israel. It is no accident that what the apostles referred to from the Hebrew scriptures, applied to the kingdom of kings and priest, namely Christ - primarily, and his anointed brothers.
Luke 24:27 And starting with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.
Both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures contain one primary message.

People of the nations will not grasp this, so it is understandable that some would say that the writers of the Greek scriptures borrowed texts from the Hebrew scriptures in order to make it appear as though they are in harmony.
They made similar claims about the book of Daniel, saying that it was written after the events, in order to make it seem that they were prophecy.

Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing. But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God. 1 Corinthians 2:6-10

These attacks always fail.