It's All About That Faith, Bout That Faith

[nazz]

I suspect if a person picks up a Bible, he has a desire to know God. Otherwise, why bother? If by hearing, you mean obeying, I agree. Many heard the words of Jesus, but didn't listen, so to speak. Jesus illustrated this in His parable of the sower.

Plenty of people read the Bible and don't believe a word it says. They approach it from a skeptical basis and want to pull it apart. But that isn't really what I meant. Plenty of believers read the bible and hear what they want to hear which is not necessarily what God is saying. According to the bible itself the Word of God is not the bible. The Word of God is more than that and not everything in the bible is the Word of God.

 

[katiemygirl]

Plenty of people read the Bible and don't believe a word it says. They approach it from a skeptical basis and want to pull it apart.

But that isn't really what I meant. Plenty of believers read the bible and hear what they want to hear which is not necessarily what God is saying.

According to the bible itself the Word of God is not the bible. The Word of God is more than that and not everything in the bible is the Word of God.

I agree with the first part of what you wrote. Many read the Bible in order to tear it down. I also agree that people will make the Bible say what they want it to say. Where we part company is when you say that everything in the Bible is not the word of God. Granted, what we have are copies of the originals, and many translations, but God promised to preserve His word forever. I believe His promises.

 

[nazz]

I agree with the first part of what you wrote. Many read the Bible in order to tear it down. I also agree that people will make the Bible say what they want it to say. Where we part company is when you say that everything in the Bible is not the word of God. Granted, what we have are copies of the originals, and many translations, but God promised to preserve His word forever. I believe His promises.

I would encourage you to ask yourself this question: where does my belief the Bible is the Word of God come from? The bible itself or what other have said about it? Then do a word study on every instance where the term "word of God" is found in the Bible. If you can overcome what you've been taught I think you will see what I did that it cannot possibly mean the bible itself. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, his message, and the preaching of the same. Of course this message can be found in the bible in written form but they are not the same. God indeed has preserved his eternal word but that does not mean all the many contradictory versions of the bible out there.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Hi Katie,

I'll answer your OP using the assumption that God exists.

That's what God wants from us! Faith!!! He wants us to be as little children and put our complete trust in Him.

Trust is earned. God understands why I see no need to have faith in him, and he can judge that as he will. I see no reason to turn off my God-given faculties and replace it with blind faith. Nor would I revere a being that expected me to do so.

God wants us to fear Him, that is, look upon Him with reverence and awe, not be scared or afraid of Him.

He could inspire reverence and awe in me (or fear, for that matter) anytime he saw fit. I don't expect him to, don't demand he does, and don't dare him to.

God wants us to walk in His ways.

Surely not. This doesn't make sense to me at all (sorry!). We have never and could never walk God's path, nor has he ever walked ours. I suspect you mean he wants us to tread the path he has marked out for us?

Faith is a choice. We get it by hearing, reading and studying His word.

Hmm...I've had this discussion with people before, and personally I think the truth lies somewhere between choice and non-choice, probably leaning more towards non-choice.
Look at it this way...I can't believe that Shintoism is the true path to enlightenment, because I am ignorant of many of it's tenets, and have only a broad understanding. So, by choice, I can remain largely ignorant of Shintoism, and it will not therefore ever become my preferred path to enlightenment. Willful ignorance, if you like, although it's simply not possible to cure my own ignorance of everything.
However, apart from selection of sources, and exposure to something, the ultimate decision in whether to believe it true or not doesn't seem a choice. Of course, the selection of sources and influences is more profound than most lend credence.

If I look at Christianity, I'm pretty well-versed. Attended church, and was brought up broadly Christian. Live in a society that has a majority of Christians, compared to other religions. I've read the Bible, have Christian friends, and don't limit my sources to anti-theist or atheist sources, but include Christian sources. It's something I could less honestly say about most religions, but I have a high level of exposure to Christianity. So in terms of 'choice', I haven't chosen to exclude Christianity from my life. But I have no faith in God. Zero. Perhaps I chose that route consciously, but I don't see how I could have chosen otherwise.

At best, I could decide life would be better if I believed, and therefore start consciously altering the influences and environment to start skewing my beliefs indirectly.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's what God wants from us! Faith!!! He wants us to be as little children and put our complete trust in Him.
God wants us to fear Him, that is, look upon Him with reverence and awe, not be scared or afraid of Him.
God wants us to walk in His ways.
God wants us to love Him.
God wants us to obey Him.
Faith is a choice. We get it by hearing, reading and studying His word.
We make a conscious decision to have faith or not have it.
Blessings,
Katie

Jesus showed faith [ Not credulity ] in the ' religious truth ' [ John 17:17] as recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures such as at Deuteronomy 30 vs 15, 19 which says to choose life.....

Jesus' apostles at Luke 17 v 5 made the conscious decision to ask to be given more faith.
Faith to overcome even huge obstacles to one's faith or belief.

Doubt or fear in heart was destructive to Peter's faith. When Peter took his focus off Jesus, then Peter could No longer walk on the water.- Matthew 14 v 30,31

 

[Acintya_Ash]

That's what God wants from us! Faith!!! He wants us to be as little children and put our complete trust in Him.

God wants us to fear Him, that is, look upon Him with reverence and awe, not be scared or afraid of Him.

God wants us to walk in His ways.

God wants us to love Him.

God wants us to obey Him.

Faith is a choice. We get it by hearing, reading and studying His word.

We make a conscious decision to have faith or not have it.

Blessings,

Katie

God gives freedom. If God didn’t give us freedom, if God simply programmed us to love, then we would be computers. But God gives us the freedom to love Him, or love anybody else, or hate Him or betray Him, or rebel against Him. We have the freedom to do whatever we want. We can go on to be a murderer right after reading this. We can go to a movie; we can go to a temple. We can dance. We can get drunk. We have freedom to do any of these things.

Does the computer have the freedom? A computer has no freedom. A computer is simply programmed to do exactly what the computer operator wants. God does not want to live with computers; He wants to live with people. Therefore, He has given us freedom and independence. Our freedom is whether we want to accept or whether we want to reject the grace of God, as it coming from the word of truth.– Radhanath Swami

 

[Prophet]

Faith is no substitute for a fat ***.

 

[Desert Snake]

I suspect if a person picks up a Bible, he has a desire to know God. Otherwise, why bother? If by hearing, you mean obeying, I agree. Many heard the words of Jesus, but didn't listen, so to speak. Jesus illustrated this in His parable of the sower.

Right. I think this is part of the bemusing yet slightly sad aspects of 'arguing' with unbelievers. Why are they so intent on 'proving' religious beliefs wrong? Who are they trying to convince? I think if we are gentle in our arguments it presents less of a chance that their egos will get damaged, and get mud on their glass houses. At the same time, we can't be too apologetic because it sends the wrong message to other believers, and in fact is probably not really appropriate.
Have a good day.

 

[Desert Snake]

I would encourage you to ask yourself this question: where does my belief the Bible is the Word of God come from? The bible itself or what other have said about it? Then do a word study on every instance where the term "word of God" is found in the Bible. If you can overcome what you've been taught I think you will see what I did that it cannot possibly mean the bible itself. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, his message, and the preaching of the same. Of course this message can be found in the bible in written form but they are not the same. God indeed has preserved his eternal word but that does not mean all the many contradictory versions of the bible out there.

I don't think I 'need' Jesus. I have the same beliefs without His teachings, although I do agree with some of them. Christians, I have noticed, also often send a very mixed message. They will say, 'the first Covenant is complete etc etc, then at the same time present some idea that gentiles have to be grafted onto the Israel label somehow in order to be practicing the 'Covenant' that Jesus gave us. Say what? Who is correct here? Jesus or the Covenant they are saying is 'necessary'? If the Old Covenant is legitimate, why is it different from the new one? So I have to follow a Covenant that is not used by Christians if I don't follow Jesus? What?
Anyways, have a good day.

 

[katiemygirl]

I would encourage you to ask yourself this question: where does my belief the Bible is the Word of God come from? The bible itself or what other have said about it? Then do a word study on every instance where the term "word of God" is found in the Bible. If you can overcome what you've been taught I think you will see what I did that it cannot possibly mean the bible itself. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, his message, and the preaching of the same. Of course this message can be found in the bible in written form but they are not the same. God indeed has preserved his eternal word but that does not mean all the many contradictory versions of the bible out there.

I agree with you that Jesus is the word. John 1 says it clearly. But at the same time, I know that all Scripture is inspired by God. The words come from God. He breathed them. Men may have recorded them, but God spoke them. In that sense, the Bible is the word of God. The Bible doesn't have contradictions. Every supposed contradiction has been proven false. There may be some grammatical or copy errors, and no doubt some translators have taken liberties with the Scriptures, to beef up their doctrinal biases. But the message of what must I do to be saved is there in all translations. It's loud and clear. How God would have us live our lives is written just as loudly and clearly. If someone uses the "contradiction" excuse to discount the entire Bible, then it is exactly that, an excuse. It's easier to blame the translations and supposed contradictions than to follow Jesus. Following Jesus requires giving up sin, and for some folks, that's very hard to do. It is up to each of us to study, not just accept what we have been taught. There are numerous aids, interlinears, dictionaries, etc. that are free of charge on the internet where the average person can look at the original Greek and see the truth for themselves. There is no excuse for not knowing what God's will is for us, and none at all for not obeying it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Right. I think this is part of the bemusing yet slightly sad aspects of 'arguing' with unbelievers. Why are they so intent on 'proving' religious beliefs wrong? Who are they trying to convince? I think if we are gentle in our arguments it presents less of a chance that their egos will get damaged, and get mud on their glass houses. At the same time, we can't be too apologetic because it sends the wrong message to other believers, and in fact is probably not really appropriate.
Have a good day.

Not sure I'd offer myself up as a 'typical' unbeliever, but for me I prefer polite but direct over 'gentle'. Depends on the particular unbeliever though, I suspect. But that would get around your worry about being too apologetic. No need to be apologetic to my mind. I certainly don't apologise for my non-belief.

Some other points generally;
1) I don't really care what people believe, but beliefs commonly impact on their worldview, so I like to understand religion for that reason, as much as any.
2) Some religions, and Christianity would be the main one (in various forms) impact my world unavoidably. This is more the case in other countries than mine, of course.
3) Some religious beliefs are harmful. Where that line is drawn differs from person to person, but we all believe that, you guys included. There are certain religions you would like to prove wrong (at least theoretically), if for no other reason than harmful practices are stopped. Seen in that light, an unbelievers motivation might make more sense to you, although, as already mentioned, each person really needs to be judged on their own merits.
4) I can fake frothing at the mouth anti-theism if you like, but many anti-theists don't live up to the angry atheist stereotype, and I'm not an anti-theist anyway.

 

[katiemygirl]

I don't think I 'need' Jesus. I have the same beliefs without His teachings, although I do agree with some of them. Christians, I have noticed, also often send a very mixed message. They will say, 'the first Covenant is complete etc etc, then at the same time present some idea that gentiles have to be grafted onto the Israel label somehow in order to be practicing the 'Covenant' that Jesus gave us. Say what? Who is correct here? Jesus or the Covenant they are saying is 'necessary'? If the Old Covenant is legitimate, why is it different from the new one? So I have to follow a Covenant that is not used by Christians if I don't follow Jesus? What?
Anyways, have a good day.

I can see why you are confused. I'm confused by what you wrote.

 

[Desert Snake]

I can see why you are confused. I'm confused by what you wrote.

I'm not confused. Perhaps try reading it again.
-For clarification to what I posted, I'm a non-Xian theist. i.e. not subscribing to the Jesus doctrine in totality or in name, though I do agree with some of what He taught.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I agree with you that Jesus is the word. John 1 says it clearly. But at the same time, I know that all Scripture is inspired by God. The words come from God. He breathed them. Men may have recorded them, but God spoke them. In that sense, the Bible is the word of God. The Bible doesn't have contradictions. Every supposed contradiction has been proven false. There may be some grammatical or copy errors, and no doubt some translators have taken liberties with the Scriptures, to beef up their doctrinal biases. But the message of what must I do to be saved is there in all translations. It's loud and clear. How God would have us live our lives is written just as loudly and clearly. If someone uses the "contradiction" excuse to discount the entire Bible, then it is exactly that, an excuse. It's easier to blame the translations and supposed contradictions than to follow Jesus. Following Jesus requires giving up sin, and for some folks, that's very hard to do. It is up to each of us to study, not just accept what we have been taught. There are numerous aids, interlinears, dictionaries, etc. that are free of charge on the internet where the average person can look at the original Greek and see the truth for themselves. There is no excuse for not knowing what God's will is for us, and none at all for not obeying it.

I don't really live a 'sinful life'...far less so than most, anyway (including believers). So why do you think I don't believe?

 

[katiemygirl]

I'm not confused. Perhaps try reading it again.

I'm not confused. Perhaps try reading it again.
-For clarification to what I posted, I'm a non-Xian theist. i.e. not subscribing to the Jesus doctrine in totality or in name, though I do agree with some of what He taught.

Sounds like whoever you are talking to are confused. Just curious about which of Jesus' teachings you disagree with, if you don't mind sharing.

 

[katiemygirl]

I don't really live a 'sinful life'...far less so than most, anyway (including believers). So why do you think I don't believe?

I don't think anything about you one way or the other. I don't know you. Sorry if you thought I was speaking of you in particular. I was speaking in general.

 

[Desert Snake]

Sounds like whoever you are talking to are confused. Just curiius about which of Jesus' teachings you disagree with, if you don't mind sharing.

Good question, because if I interpret things according to how I actually understand them when reading, I can't think of any. there are 'ideas' however that are so prevalent as to the meaning of certain verses that it is somewhat 'practical' to just say I don't fully subscribe to his teachings. Another aspect, I could be incorrect in some interpretations, so I'm taking the cautious approach here, and if a majority interpret something in a like manner, I might just defer to that interpretation. Anyways these instances are sort of off topic, though I suppose I could make a short list or something. Perhaps for another thread, have a good day

 

[Sabour]

That's what God wants from us! Faith!!! He wants us to be as little children and put our complete trust in Him.

God wants us to fear Him, that is, look upon Him with reverence and awe, not be scared or afraid of Him.

God wants us to walk in His ways.

God wants us to love Him.

God wants us to obey Him.

Faith is a choice. We get it by hearing, reading and studying His word.

We make a conscious decision to have faith or not have it.

Blessings,

Katie

It is not just beliefs, it is beliefs and deeds.

Second, when it come to beliefs, you have to have the true belief. Not a wrong one. One of the wrong beliefs is for example that Jesus peace be upon him was a god, son of god or part of trinity.

Third, you don't have to choose to have faith and therefor believe. This is not acceptable to God. You have to study it and accept it logically and ask God to guide you to the truth. Blind faith is not acceptable.

 

[katiemygirl]

Good question, because if I interpret things according to how I actually understand them when reading, I can't think of any. there are 'ideas' however that are so prevalent as to the meaning of certain verses that it is somewhat 'practical' to just say I don't fully subscribe to his teachings. Another aspect, I could be incorrect in some interpretations, so I'm taking the cautious approach here, and if a majority interpret something in a like manner, I might just defer to that interpretation. Anyways these instances are sort of off topic, though I suppose I could make a short list or something. Perhaps for another thread, have a good day

It's good to try to understand things for yourself, rather than letting others interpret for you. I was raised in a particular church and believed all that my parents and teachers taught me. Why wouldn't I? I loved and trusted them. But when I grew up and began to read for myself, I saw contradictions in what I was taught by them and what I was reading. I've been studying for myself for nearly 40 years, and even now I have to adjust my beliefs. What I thought last year may not have been quite right. Imho, the Scriptures run deep. They have many layers. I figure God gives me understanding in accordance to what He thinks I'm ready for. My $0.02 for what it's worth. You have a good day as well!

 

[katiemygirl]

It is not just beliefs, it is beliefs and deeds.

Second, when it come to beliefs, you have to have the true belief. Not a wrong one. One of the wrong beliefs is for example that Jesus peace be upon him was a god, son of god or part of trinity.

Third, you don't have to choose to have faith and therefor believe. This is not acceptable to God. You have to study it and accept it logically and ask God to guide you to the truth. Blind faith is not acceptable.

You are correct! Faith all by itself is dead. We must have a faith that trusts and obeys, like Abraham had.

I don't use the word trinity. It's not in the Bible. However, the concept is. Jesus is the essence of God. He is the Son of God.

There are many false teachings floating around out there. It's up to us to study and prove all things.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God. When we hear the word, we choose to accept or reject it. The parable of the sower shows us this. Faith is a choice. God has given us many reasons to believe in Him, His creation being one. We can see His handiwork through everything He has made.