It's All About That Faith, Bout That Faith

[katiemygirl]

So how do you determine what is and what does not qualify as "scripture"? Is the Quran scripture? Is the Book of Mormon scripture? Is the Book of Urantia scripture? Or the Tao Te Ching? Or the Dhammapada? All of these are considered scripture by someone, and I could list dozens of others. How do you determine which of these things the 2 Timothy is referring to? Or do you choose to believe them

I have to disagree with you. Deciding to entertain a notion to see if it resonates with you is not the same thing as just choosing to believe. I was raised learning Christianity, my mother's side of the family is quite Catholic actually. No one could say I didn't give it a fair shake. However, I had my own experiences, my own ideas, that just didn't mesh with it. Made it impossible for that belief structure to exist for me. I had found something else that was "truth" for me and Christianity, by comparison, was false, lies, made up. It just cannot be. I cannot simply "learn to accept" that which I find myself allergic to. And that is about what it is. It so repels me, I find it so counter to what I have experienced and know for myself, that it would be like being deathly allergic to peanuts and forcing myself to eat a huge jar of Jif.

Once again, you have that choice. You have free will and you fortunately live in a country that allows you that freedom.

 

[katiemygirl]

Fair enough. I belong to various groupings, I guess, but in this particular case I was referring to my atheism.
Yep. You look at the stars and see evidence of your God, I suppose. I see evidence to the contrary, in some ways. A Muslim sees evidence of his God. Some other folks see the stars themselves as Gods. An interesting study in human belief, perhaps.
Okay.
I'll probably hash this up a little, but in the simplest/most generic possible terms, Deism is the rejection of religion, but the belief that the universe was created by a single Creator.
In other words, one could agree with the sentiment of Romans 1:20, but reject the Bible.
Some Deists you may be aware of for example;
- Thomas Jefferson
- Voltaire
- Thomas Paine
- Victor Hugo
- Mark Twain
- Dmitri Mendeleev
- Adam Smith

Thank you for your mini lesson. I did a little reading myself, and this is what I learned.
Deism is essentially the view that God exists, but that He is not directly involved in the world. Deism pictures God as the great “clockmaker” who created the clock, wound it up, and let it go. A deist believes that God exists and created the world, but does not interfere with His creation. Deists deny the Trinity, the inspiration of the Bible, the deity of Christ, miracles, and any supernatural act of redemption or salvation. Deism pictures God as ambivalent, uncaring, and uninvolved.

 

[katiemygirl]

Then what are we debating?

Whether or not faith is a choice.

 

[katiemygirl]

So how do you determine what is and what does not qualify as "scripture"? Is the Quran scripture? Is the Book of Mormon scripture? Is the Book of Urantia scripture? Or the Tao Te Ching? Or the Dhammapada? All of these are considered scripture by someone, and I could list dozens of others. How do you determine which of these things the 2 Timothy is referring to? Or do you choose to believe them all?

The evidence is overwhelming that the Bible, all 66 books are the inspired word of God. All others are false. They don't hold up under close examination.

If you want to start a new thread on that topic, feel free. This thread is about faith and whether we choose it or not.

 

[katiemygirl]

So you wear no mixed fabrics, eat no shellfish and stone unruly children? That's all in the Bible too. Or do you pick and choose what to believe and rationalize your way around things you don't like? Whether you like it or not, you don't *KNOW* that all Scripture is inspired, you said it yourself, you choose to believe it. The only source of claims that the Bible is inspired is in the Bible. You choose to believe the Bible because you want to believe the Bible. No knowledge required, all faith.

I don't live under the Law of Moses. I live under the law of Christ. The old ordinances were nailed to the cross with Jesus.

 

[Draka]

Once again, you have that choice. You have free will and you fortunately live in a country that allows you that freedom.

You still don't get it. What I'm saying is that it isn't a choice. I could no more choose to believe in Christianity than I could choose to believe that Earth is actually Discworld-like in its existence, flat and carried upon the backs of elephants riding a giant space turtle, rather than the sphere it is. It is simply incomprehensible to my thinking based upon what else I know. I haven't a switch in my brain that can turn off my reasoning abilities and allow me to accept something so determinedly false and contrary to everything else I know.

Belief itself is simply not a choice.

 

[Draka]

Here is what it boils down to...

One can choose to entertain a notion.
One can choose to study a position.
One can choose to weigh pros and cons between two options BUT

One cannot just choose to believe something.
One comes to a realization that they find something more or less likely possible than something else. If the comparison of the two leads one to find a great discrepancy between likely and unlikely it goes against their own reasoning to "choose" to just believe the least likely. It is just not possible. If one somehow still finds it possible in their mind to believe the least likely possibility then there is something cognitively wrong with that person.

 

[Drolefille]

The question is, WHY do you want it? Why would you want it instead of knowledge?

Why would you assume "instead of?" In fact the need for knowing that what I believe is true is important. Even if that "knowing" is something personal to me that I can't rationally explain to others - a personal experience for example.

The question was between knowledge and faith. I choose knowledge, at least the pursuit of it. He chooses faith. I asked why he picked the one he did. That is all.

She.

Still doesn't answer WHY you believe one must choose between the two as if they are at odds. They simply don't have to be and often are not.

Indeed.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, I accept all 66 books of the Bible. They are inspired.

Right -- all 66 books of the Bible that you use. I'm with you on that. My point was to show that "scripture" doesn't necessarily mean "the Bible." It means "the Bible" only when you chose to define it that way.

This thread was not started to prove that God exists or that the Bible is God's word. It's about whether or not we choose to have faith.

I know, but when statements are made that could be interpreted in more ways than one, it is only natural to expect people to comment on them.

And as I said before, I agree that we do choose to have faith, but we can't choose to have faith in something that is outlandish to us. We have to be able to have a reason to have faith in order to make the choice to have it.

 

[katiemygirl]

Right -- all 66 books of the Bible that you use. I'm with you on that. My point was to show that "scripture" doesn't necessarily mean "the Bible." It means "the Bible" only when you chose to define it that way.

I know, but when statements are made that could be interpreted in more ways than one, it is only natural to expect people to comment on them.

And as I said before, I agree that we do choose to have faith, but we can't choose to have faith in something that is outlandish to us. We have to be able to have a reason to have faith in order to make the choice to have it.

I agree with you Katz. We have to have a reason to believe, and I'm sure you agree that the Bible gives us plenty of reasons. I'm thinking of posting up a thread about why I believe in the Bible.

 

[katiemygirl]

You still don't get it. What I'm saying is that it isn't a choice. I could no more choose to believe in Christianity than I could choose to believe that Earth is actually Discworld-like in its existence, flat and carried upon the backs of elephants riding a giant space turtle, rather than the sphere it is. It is simply incomprehensible to my thinking based upon what else I know. I haven't a switch in my brain that can turn off my reasoning abilities and allow me to accept something so determinedly false and contrary to everything else I know.

 

[katiemygirl]

Sorry, will try to respond later.

 

[nazz]

Yes, I accept all 66 books of the Bible. They are inspired. This thread was not started to prove that God exists or that the Bible is God's word. It's about whether or not we choose to have faith.

Understood but threads evolve! Right now we are asking you to consider your own beliefs in the light of reason.

 

[nazz]

I agree with you Katz. We have to have a reason to believe, and I'm sure you agree that the Bible gives us plenty of reasons. I'm thinking of posting up a thread about why I believe in the Bible.

Please do!

 

[katiemygirl]

Please do!

I will. It may take me a couple days.

 

[katiemygirl]

Understood but threads evolve! Right now we are asking you to consider your own beliefs in the light of reason.

I will start a new thread when I have time to put my thoughts down.

 

[katiemygirl]

Sorry, will try to respond later.

I will try to explain in another thread.

 

[Drolefille]

Still not sure how I can choose to believe when if I could choose I would.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Whether or not faith is a choice.

I would say it is and isn't. To obtain faith one must make specific strides in order to obtain it but the actual faith or lack thereof isn't a choice.

 

[Cephus]

Why would you assume "instead of?" In fact the need for knowing that what I believe is true is important. Even if that "knowing" is something personal to me that I can't rationally explain to others - a personal experience for example.

But going back to what I originally said, once you have knowledge, faith becomes redundant. I have no need to have faith in the speed of light, I have knowledge about the speed of light. Faith means nothing once you have knowledge. Faith is believing without evidence. I'd much rather have the evidence and not need faith at all.

She.

Hard to tell around here. My apologies.