Well, then you must raving mad. From the evidence point of view, both books are equivalent.
ciao
- viole
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- Thread starter John1.12
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ciao
- viole
Not that it you have to believe it ,but what would you say is happening to Cornelius in Acts 10 ? Aside from the usual " I think nothing about it ,because the writer made it up for fun " ,or " He took magic mushrooms " .
Then from from that presupposition its going to be very difficult for you to change your mind on that . Keeps things easy though doesn't it ?
If your willing to hire a hall , send out the flyers ,let's get the leading scholar on the wooden boy v the Christian scholar to thrash out which one is the most reliable true account . I.ll see you there .
I repeat. The evidence of being true is the same. There is no most reliable account since they are both just nice stories on some books.
and the propensity of people to believe one and not the other does not change this fact. People have, in general, the proclivity to believe the weirdest stuff.
ciao
- viole
You meant 66 books of course? Having read the bible throughout ( all 66 ) and used your own sense making ? Often most folks , all they have done is reject the bible on what they have been told about it ..As I did prior to actually reading it .
[QUOTE="John1.12, post: 7193129, member: 59680]
They are saved when they believe.....................[/QUOTE]
'....When they believe ' or rather as Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 the one who 'endures to the end is saved' ______
A person can fall away according to 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:12.
Beware that he does Not fall.... (loose salvation)
They are saved when they believe.....................[/QUOTE]
'....When they believe ' or rather as Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 the one who 'endures to the end is saved' ______
A person can fall away according to 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:12.
Beware that he does Not fall.... (loose salvation)
'....When they believe ' or rather as Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 the one who 'endures to the end is saved' ______
A person can fall away according to 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:12.
Beware that he does Not fall.... (loose salvation)[/QUOTE]
Mat 24 is clearly referring to the tribulation, not the church. And 'fall 'is not 'loose salvation . Thats your private interpretation. A Christian can 'shipwreck ' his ministry , life, faith and such . But he's still remains regenerated / sealed. Eph 1.13 ..Eph 4.30
'....When they believe ' or rather as Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 the one who 'endures to the end is saved' ______
A person can fall away according to 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:12.
Beware that he does Not fall.... (loose salvation)[/QUOTE]
1 cor is about ' ministry ' and maintaining it . Not salvation . Paul's 'ministry '. That he would maintain the course , his reputation, his blamelessness . So the gospel furthered unhindered.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
When we humans die in this mortal body, we next continue in the after life in our spirit self (being), as the common bible (including words from Christ) tells us. (ask if you want to see that)
With that basic information, then look at the text:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built...."
Who are the imprisoned spirits? The text reads immediately the answer:
"...the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built...."
They are the human souls that perished in the flood.
(You can of course confirm this predominate mainstream view from mainstream commentaries:
1 Peter 3:20 Commentaries: who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.)
Further, we know that "God does not show favoritism" (Romans chapter 2), so, therefore, of course this fair equal chance would be extended to all alike that had passed without having heard the gospel in their lives.
And this is why the gospel was preached to the dead (of the Flood and other times):
1 Peter 4:6 That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Dramatically, many times, God punished the wicked in the scripture accounts in the times before Christ.
Including even at times entire removal of culture -- erasure. Nothing left to influence the peoples in the region any further. The wiping out of entire cities, including even the goods and gold and silver and such, nothing salvaged.
Meaning that God would have to sort out the innocent and the guilty in the afterlife -- just exactly as the common bible explicitly says He will do.
You can't have it both ways. Either He does as the text says:
"God will repay each according to their deeds."
And so resurrects the innocent and the forgiven to eternal life, and the unrepentant dead to the judgement and the destruction (end) in the "second death" as the text says.
Or He does not in which case the common bible itself we are discussing becomes moot, from not being about God.
But you can't have it both ways.
Either the text is describing God, and simply reading it shows God does deal out implacable justice in the afterlife to the unrepentant guilty.... -- or else that doesn't happen, and then in that case the common bible has no connection to the actual God.
It's got to be one or the other. You can't have it both ways.
Since you are not in the afterlife -- not yet -- you of course can't know ahead of time what will be clear then.
For the remainder of your analysis, the main answer is that the purpose of life here, and any reform done by those who were/are "spirits in prison" is only to become ready to be able to live in peace, joy and love in an eternal life, in harmony with God and all who are His.
Either the individual spirit will become ready, or else it will not, individually. Some will become ready, and some will not. Those that cannot trust God, who is a God of Love, will "perish" in the "second death". That will be for the best.
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Of course, I do not believe the Bible and of course I do not believe that Bible does not provide a true description of God. God wiping out cities and civilization is another example of Bible's God violating morality. Such actions cannot be thought of anything other than immoral and evil from the perspective of ethics and morality. The actual God will never violate ethics that way and hence the Bible does not describe the true God. That is the point. The common Bible has no connection with an actual God is what I am saying.
Not being able to live with someone, even God, is not a crime since it does not hurt or cause suffering to anyone at all. Its a free and perfectly valid choice that one can make. A God who gives death to a soul because that soul chooses not to live with him is a blatant violation of morality and ethics. Its like a parent who kills his child because he wants to live independently apart from them. To believe that a God will do this is absurd and yet another reason the Bible does not reflect a true God, but a human projection of patriarchal tribal oligarchic ideas in the realm of religion.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Here's a perfect and exact analogy of hundreds of pages of text (to help summarize accurately and quickly):
A group of vicious terrorists are killing innocent hostages.
A Police Officer arrives and knocks everyone out, stone cold.
He transports all of the lifeless bodies to the Police Station.
All the people are revived.
All the individuals are sorted out according to video evidence --
The terrorists wake up in jail cells.
But the innocent victims wake up in a pleasant recovery area.
All the innocent are perfectly rescued and all their wounds healed -- reversed -- using advanced, miraculous technology. Even the terribly wounded are healed.
And...the guilty in prison are given a chance to repent, those that will (which only some will)...
So, there you have the real picture, hundreds of pages condensed into a summary, in regard to the fairness and justice side of it.
Of course. Not extra-book evidence of any of supernatural events having ever taken place. Actually, counter evidence, since page 1 contains so many factual errors that should make it obvious that it is the products of clueless humans (as it should be expected during the bronze age, where knowledge about goats was vastly more spread than knowledge of basic physics). It is actually mind boggling that anyone today would be motivated to proceed to page 2, unless she is a historian specialised in ancient myths.
All Holy Books have the same evidence of Pinocchio, or to any other fiction book. If they exchanged those books when you were small, and told you Pinocchio was Holy and the Bible a fairy tale, you could not have noticed the difference, based on the available evidence, and now you would probably believe in the blue fairy, instead.
Ciao
- viole
This scenario fails because the God has perfect knowledge of who is doing what. If he is inclined to intervene, he is easily able to prevent any and every attempt at any crime without killing anyone at all and without killing anybody who is innocent. Do I have to list the many many ways this can be done by a supposedly omnipotent being? Just one example...anybody who tries to kill another gets such a splitting headache that he becomes incapacitated till the time there is no desire in him to kill. Killing the innocent along with the guilty has to be the most absurd way of crime control I have ever heard.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
I tried extensively to support the view you've stated here. I thought the same. Wanted to think it.
I tried over and over dozens of times to make instructions Christ gave fail -- to disprove some of them, any of them.
I never was able to find a way to prove any of the instructions wrong. They kept giving surprisingly good outcomes, no matter how I changed the situations.
So, I tried to prove you are right. And could not.
I'm rational. If a theory like yours -- like I had -- fails so many times, I the kind of person that abandons the theory, instead of holding on to it.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
This key idea: that our actions are predetermined/foreseen in all ways, individually, is contradicted in scriptures over and over.
Over and over the bible shows God has made us like himself in a key way: able to make real choices that are not pre-determined. Choices that cannot be foreseen on the individual level (i.e. -- God could foresee that some people will probably do wrongs, but not which people, and/or not all the time, clearly, we can see in the text).
Ask if you want examples from the text that show we are unpredictable, made to be unpredictable.
Signing off for tonight, but I'll return to answer if you have questions or want to see quotes to show the above.
So we need to figure out what you believe God's limit to knowledge is. Here is a set of verses that seems to at least show that God knows the thoughts and intents of all being at least as soon as they form in the mind or heart. Do you agree?
What Does the Bible Say About Omniscience?
joelr
Well-Known Member
I do not believe this is true. Scripture is full of stories of Gods, miracles, sea monsters, giants, humans living 700 years and endless common mythologies found first in earlier cultures. The analysis of the writing style also shows mythic/fictive writing and re-workings of older text.
Also there has never been examples of any supernatural thing being true. You do not use your "senses" to determine Greek myths are true, Hindu myths or even updates to Christianity like Mormonism or Islam.
It's more likely you started believing it assuming it was true and have not understood there is no evidence to support it.
Theologians do. But they also go into their studies assuming the words are actually from a God. Historians who compare the text to other religions and do comparative studies and historicity studies almost 100% agree the bible is Jewish/Christian mythology. The consensus on Moses in scholarship is he is a myth as well as most of the OT.
Historians believe Jesus was a teacher who was later mythicized into a savior demigod in the gospels.
joelr
Well-Known Member
It isn't a theory? J D Crossan wrote a book - The Power of Parable demonstrating that Mark is almost entirely parables.
Beyond that Mark uses ring cycles, a chiasmus that would be impossible to happen as written, Markan sandwiches and other mythic devices.
He also copies narrative from other sources to create his new narrative.
He uses Psalms in the crucifixion narrative:
Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”
Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”
Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”
Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”
Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
On top of these, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives. So we can see yet a few more elements of myth in the latter part of this Gospel, with Mark using other scriptural sources as needed for his story, whether to “fulfill” what he believed to be prophecy or for some other reason.
Mark uses ring composition, another common literary device popular at the time used in myth. In the central part of Mark’s narrative (revolving around Jesus’ travel by sea), Mark carefully crafted nested cycles of themes specifically to convey an underlying message about faith and one’s ability (or lack thereof) to understand the gospel.
Cycle 1:
Phase 1 (4.1-34) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (preaching from a boat)
Phase 2 (4.35-41) — Eventful crossing of the sea
Phase 3 (5.1-20) — Landing with healings/exorcisms
Interval 1: Step 1 (5.21-43) — First stop (after an uneventful boating)
Step 2 (6.1-6) — Second stop
Step 3 (6.6-29) — Going around
Cycle 2:
Phase 1 (6.30-44) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (with an uneventful boating)
Phase 2 (6.45-52) — Eventful crossing of the sea
Phase 3 (6.53-55) — Landing with healings/exorcisms
Interval 2: Step 1 (6.56-7.23) — Going around
Step 2 (7.24-30) — First stop
Step 3 (7.31-37) — Second stop
"
Cycle 3:
Phase 1 (8.1-12) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (with an uneventful boating)
Phase 2 (8.13-21) — Eventful crossing of the sea
Phase 3 (8.22-26) — Landing with healings/exorcisms
It’s really quite brilliantly crafted when you look at it: three triadically composed intervals, each of which contains one triadically composite minimal unit. Furthermore, every “Phase 1” in all cycles, takes place during the day and describes Jesus’ actions with crowds on one side of the sea. Every “Phase 2” occurs on the evening of that same day (though not stated explicitly in Cycle 3’s “Phase 2”, it is implied by what would have been a long sea crossing), and also describes actions between Jesus and the twelve disciples in the boat while in transit across the sea. Each “Phase 3” represents Jesus’ healing (and/or exorcising) of people who either come to him or that are brought to him following his arrival on the other side of the sea. Then there are other healings or exorcisms that are interspersed among the intervals that follow each “Phase 3”. Each cycle of this triad occupies one day, so the whole ring structure represents three days, ending with a resolution on the third day — all of which concludes by transitioning into a debate regarding who Jesus really is and what the gospel really is (Mark 8.27-9.1, which is the first time we hear Jesus speak about any of this himself)."
Those are a few examples. He also takes Paul's letters and changes many of them to actual events even though they were originally just messages from Jesus to future Christians.
Mark also uses the Kings narrative in a ring cycle that is updating the OT narrative. This is mythology.
The updated myths are blended with the updated political and theological ideas the author wanted to push. Clearly the gospels have different political agendas. Matthew wanted members to become Jewish to join and each writer advanced the supernatural aspects of the story as well.
The wisdom at times may be good advice, this does not mean the story is literally true. You seem to want to make that connection.
The Bhagavad Gita has immense wisdom, it still isn't the words of Krishna. People figured these philosophies out themselves and used myths of Gods to teach them. Same here.