Its Good news .

[joelr]

Yes, if it were just as you paint it (or anyone said such), then I'd instantly agree. But unsurprisingly (as you know well already in Judaism) God is just, not unjust.

And that continues (as one would think it would) in the 'new testament' also -- still perfectly just and fair:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 2:6-16 - New International Version

God's justice and fairness: unchanged.

The wonderful Good News is that Christ came to offer us a sudden total remission of our sins, through faith in Him, so that anyone that would want to repent in real faith (not just lip service, but the real thing) can do so. That's pretty Good News.

We have the same Justice as before Christ, but a new, wonderful more direct way to turn with total belief in God, to turn to His redeemer for us in faith, and be cleansed from our sins, fully relieved of them, even without any visit to a temple or extra sacrifices. The barriers have been bypassed through Christ.

Sure if one buys into the archaic idea that to get into the afterlife you cannot break these certain "God rules" and you are full of some magic "sin force" that a demigod sacrifice can cleanse you of?
Even weirder is for the majority of the OT there was no heaven for members of the religion. Then just at the time they are invaded by Persian and Greeks the religion adapts a Hellenized concept of the afterlife?
Souls that belong in heaven was a Greek religious philosophy. It's known and accepted in scholarship that the Israelites borrowed it from them.
Jewish religious leaders were against it at first because it isn't in their scripture.



"During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC). Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead."

 

[joelr]

Not that it you have to believe it ,but what would you say is happening to Cornelius in Acts 10 ? Aside from the usual " I think nothing about it ,because the writer made it up for fun " ,or " He took magic mushrooms " .

Acts has been demonstrated to be non-historical. Biblical historian Richard Purvoe has shown it's mostly fiction.

The Mystery of Acts: Unraveling Its Story

This is Pervo's amazing, clear, and unsullied conclusion to his long and magnificent scholarship on Acts. Pervo's conclusion is stunning because it is won by impeccable scholarship and thorough consideration of the traditional views of Luke as historian. It changes the picture of Christian beginnings, and should change the minds of New Testament scholars. --Burton Mack, Professor of Religion and Early Christianity, emeritus Claremont Graduate University

Pervo writes with verve and has a commanding knowledge of the literature on Acts, and his assessment of the theological intent of Acts is informative. --The Bible Today

"This is the most important book I have read in five years. Bravo Pervo! Summarizing the discoveries made during the writing of his magisterial commentary on Acts, this little book makes it wonderfully clear that there is little if anything of historical value in the book of Acts, apart from what it can tell us about the community that wrote it. In one fell swoop, the only basis of support for the traditional model of Christian origins has been eliminated. It is now possible to entertain seriously other models of Christian origins, including the theory that Christianity did not begin at any particular place in space or moment in time, but rather began like the ancient religions of Egypt, India, Greece, and Rome. The fact that as soon as the curtain goes up on the stage of Christian history there is evidence of division and "heresies" such as Docetism--inexplicable on the basis of traditional notions of an historical "Jesus of Nazareth"--now becomes understandable if "Christianity" developed (and continues to develop) as the intertwining of threads of religious tradition into braids of tradition that change as time goes on. The origins of some threads disappear into the mists of prehistory, others enter the braid at known points in time and space. Some threads leave the braid, the braid fragments into various "Christianities," and the color of the various threads may change as a function of time and place."

Altogether, this little book is a biblical block-buster. Expect more wonderful work from Pervo!

 

[joelr]

Then from from that presupposition its going to be very difficult for you to change your mind on that . Keeps things easy though doesn't it ?

Cool, put some evidence forward then. All you have done is say "I believe this book because I believe it...". Which is your right. Not everyone desires to believe ancient stories without evidence.

Your assertion that people who know the Bible is not a literal historical story just take the "easy" path is uninformed.
I have been studying the biblical historicity field for 10 years as well as archeological evidence and even apologetics, comparative religious studies and debates between historians, apologetics and others.

The evidence for the Bible is no stronger than the evidence for Islam, Hinduism or most other religions. Your reasons for believing are exactly the same. It's just another religious myth where moral ideas are framed into stories about Gods and supernatural happenings.
You expect to change minds? Give evidence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm still healing and recovering from the extensive damage that toxin did to me.
I'll pass on taking that poison again.

 

[John1.12]

Of course. Not extra-book evidence of any of supernatural events having ever taken place. Actually, counter evidence, since page 1 contains so many factual errors that should make it obvious that it is the products of clueless humans (as it should be expected during the bronze age, where knowledge about goats was vastly more spread than knowledge of basic physics). It is actually mind boggling that anyone today would be motivated to proceed to page 2, unless she is a historian specialised in ancient myths.

All Holy Books have the same evidence of Pinocchio, or to any other fiction book. If they exchanged those books when you were small, and told you Pinocchio was Holy and the Bible a fairy tale, you could not have noticed the difference, based on the available evidence, and now you would probably believe in the blue fairy, instead.

Ciao

- viole

And yet here we are still talking about these super natural events that ' never happened ' .

 

[John1.12]

Acts has been demonstrated to be non-historical. Biblical historian Richard Purvoe has shown it's mostly fiction.

The Mystery of Acts: Unraveling Its Story

This is Pervo's amazing, clear, and unsullied conclusion to his long and magnificent scholarship on Acts. Pervo's conclusion is stunning because it is won by impeccable scholarship and thorough consideration of the traditional views of Luke as historian. It changes the picture of Christian beginnings, and should change the minds of New Testament scholars. --Burton Mack, Professor of Religion and Early Christianity, emeritus Claremont Graduate University

Pervo writes with verve and has a commanding knowledge of the literature on Acts, and his assessment of the theological intent of Acts is informative. --The Bible Today

"This is the most important book I have read in five years. Bravo Pervo! Summarizing the discoveries made during the writing of his magisterial commentary on Acts, this little book makes it wonderfully clear that there is little if anything of historical value in the book of Acts, apart from what it can tell us about the community that wrote it. In one fell swoop, the only basis of support for the traditional model of Christian origins has been eliminated. It is now possible to entertain seriously other models of Christian origins, including the theory that Christianity did not begin at any particular place in space or moment in time, but rather began like the ancient religions of Egypt, India, Greece, and Rome. The fact that as soon as the curtain goes up on the stage of Christian history there is evidence of division and "heresies" such as Docetism--inexplicable on the basis of traditional notions of an historical "Jesus of Nazareth"--now becomes understandable if "Christianity" developed (and continues to develop) as the intertwining of threads of religious tradition into braids of tradition that change as time goes on. The origins of some threads disappear into the mists of prehistory, others enter the braid at known points in time and space. Some threads leave the braid, the braid fragments into various "Christianities," and the color of the various threads may change as a function of time and place."

Altogether, this little book is a biblical block-buster. Expect more wonderful work from Pervo!

Yes many people selling books . Its lucrative .

 

[viole]

And yet here we are still talking about these super natural events that ' never happened ' .

Of course. I also debate with my Muslim friend who believes Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse.
Does my obvious disbelief increase the chance of that cab ride to heaven?

ciao

- viole

 

[URAVIP2ME]

When we humans die in this mortal body, we next continue in the after life in our spirit self (being), as the common bible (including words from Christ) tells us. (ask if you want to see that)
With that basic information, then look at the text:
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built...."
Who are the imprisoned spirits? The text reads immediately the answer:
"...the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built...."
They are the human souls that perished in the flood.
(You can of course confirm this predominate mainstream view from mainstream commentaries:
1 Peter 3:20 Commentaries: who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.)
Further, we know that "God does not show favoritism" (Romans chapter 2), so, therefore, of course this fair equal chance would be extended to all alike that had passed without having heard the gospel in their lives.
And this is why the gospel was preached to the dead (of the Flood and other times):
1 Peter 4:6 That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Words from Christ teach us the 'dead are sleeping' -> John 11:11-14.
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures that also teach sleep in death -Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5

Afterlife means being more alive after death than before death.
The living dead would Not need a resurrection, but the sleeping dead need a resurrection.- Rev. 1:18
Or, as Acts of the Apostles 24:15 teaches that there ' is going to be ' (future) a resurrection.......

The 'spirits' are Not people according to ' 2 Peter 2:4 '(but angels, the disobedient angels of Noah's day )
They are the spirits of Jude 1:6.

It was people (Not angels) who 'perished' ( meaning were destroyed ) in the Flood.

 

[halbhh]

So we need to figure out what you believe God's limit to knowledge is. Here is a set of verses that seems to at least show that God knows the thoughts and intents of all being at least as soon as they form in the mind or heart. Do you agree?
What Does the Bible Say About Omniscience?

Knowing totally all that is right now, present tense, of course is 'omniscience', as is also knowing all that has occurred past tense too. These omniscience don't necessarily entail knowing all future events of every last kind, even though they do imply it seems at the minimum knowing at least many future events (though not necessarily all). Additionally God being able to do all things means of course that God can intervene to alter the course of events and cause a particular outcome He chooses, at will.

 

[sayak83]

Knowing totally all that is right now, present tense, of course is 'omniscience', as is also knowing all that has occurred past tense too. These omniscience don't necessarily entail knowing all future events of every last kind, even though they do imply it seems at the minimum knowing at least many future events (though not necessarily all). Additionally God being able to do all things means of course that God can intervene to alter the course of events and cause a particular outcome He chooses, at will.

Then there is no objection to my scenario. Since before I kill anyone, I have to form a thought in my mind to kill. Thus God will always know beforehand that I am about to kill because he will know those thoughts and intents. So he can therefore prevent me from carrying out the killing ( like giving me a migraine). It also refutes your contention that God has to kill everyone and figure out after the resurrection who was guilty and who was innocent.

 

[halbhh]

Then there is no objection to my scenario. Since before I kill anyone, I have to form a thought in my mind to kill. Thus God will always know beforehand that I am about to kill because he will know those thoughts and intents. So he can therefore prevent me from carrying out the killing ( like giving me a migraine). It also refutes your contention that God has to kill everyone and figure out after the resurrection who was guilty and who was innocent.

God doesn't prevent us from doing evil. He allows us to do wrongs, and to possibly learn from them....

He does in a key way undo all evils done against those that He is redeeming though, after the fact, later, in the life to come. We won't have any scars of any kind, including mental or such. No trace of old hurts will remain. He will at times when it seems crucial perhaps for a soul intervene, but He is careful to leave no trace that a hostile skeptic could use to find out He exists.

 

[sayak83]

God doesn't prevent us from doing evil. He allows us to do wrongs, and to possibly learn from them....

He does in a key way undo all evils done against those that He is redeeming though, after the fact, later, in the life to come. We won't have any scars of any kind, including mental or such. No trace of old hurts will remain. He will at times when it seems crucial perhaps for a soul intervene, but He is careful to leave no trace that a hostile skeptic could use to find out He exists.

You told me he destroyed entire cities before. Now you are saying something entirely different.

 

[John1.12]

Of course. I also debate with my Muslim friend who believes Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse.
Does my obvious disbelief increase the chance of that cab ride to heaven?

ciao

- viole

The Muslim Religion is not dependant on the winged horse incident. Some believe it ,some don't. Whats your point again ?

 

[halbhh]

You told me he destroyed entire cities before. Now you are saying something entirely different.

So, when Christ came (to bring about profound inner change of heart for those that believe in Him), it changed the basic situation in the world. God no longer does the visible miracles that even unbelievers might see and thereby change their belief, and now anyone that wants to approach Him must come through faith alone (a leap of faith) -- to believe in the one Who taught "Love one another" (and more) to us -- and meet key requirements like being humble (unassuming/ non-arrogant).

Speculatively, it might be that a nation or city that became as profoundly evil as some had 3,500 or more years back might still get destroyed, perhaps. But also, that level of evil no longer seems likely, in part because of the profound changes in the world over the millennia.

 

[halbhh]

It isn't a theory? J D Crossan wrote a book - The Power of Parable demonstrating that Mark is almost entirely parables.
Beyond that Mark uses ring cycles, a chiasmus that would be impossible to happen as written, Markan sandwiches and other mythic devices.
He also copies narrative from other sources to create his new narrative.

He uses Psalms in the crucifixion narrative:

Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”

Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”

Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”

Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”

Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

On top of these, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives. So we can see yet a few more elements of myth in the latter part of this Gospel, with Mark using other scriptural sources as needed for his story, whether to “fulfill” what he believed to be prophecy or for some other reason.



Mark uses ring composition, another common literary device popular at the time used in myth. In the central part of Mark’s narrative (revolving around Jesus’ travel by sea), Mark carefully crafted nested cycles of themes specifically to convey an underlying message about faith and one’s ability (or lack thereof) to understand the gospel.

Cycle 1:

Phase 1 (4.1-34) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (preaching from a boat)

Phase 2 (4.35-41) — Eventful crossing of the sea

Phase 3 (5.1-20) — Landing with healings/exorcisms

Interval 1: Step 1 (5.21-43) — First stop (after an uneventful boating)

Step 2 (6.1-6) — Second stop

Step 3 (6.6-29) — Going around

Cycle 2:

Phase 1 (6.30-44) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (with an uneventful boating)

Phase 2 (6.45-52) — Eventful crossing of the sea

Phase 3 (6.53-55) — Landing with healings/exorcisms

Interval 2: Step 1 (6.56-7.23) — Going around

Step 2 (7.24-30) — First stop

Step 3 (7.31-37) — Second stop

"
Cycle 3:

Phase 1 (8.1-12) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (with an uneventful boating)

Phase 2 (8.13-21) — Eventful crossing of the sea

Phase 3 (8.22-26) — Landing with healings/exorcisms

It’s really quite brilliantly crafted when you look at it: three triadically composed intervals, each of which contains one triadically composite minimal unit. Furthermore, every “Phase 1” in all cycles, takes place during the day and describes Jesus’ actions with crowds on one side of the sea. Every “Phase 2” occurs on the evening of that same day (though not stated explicitly in Cycle 3’s “Phase 2”, it is implied by what would have been a long sea crossing), and also describes actions between Jesus and the twelve disciples in the boat while in transit across the sea. Each “Phase 3” represents Jesus’ healing (and/or exorcising) of people who either come to him or that are brought to him following his arrival on the other side of the sea. Then there are other healings or exorcisms that are interspersed among the intervals that follow each “Phase 3”. Each cycle of this triad occupies one day, so the whole ring structure represents three days, ending with a resolution on the third day — all of which concludes by transitioning into a debate regarding who Jesus really is and what the gospel really is (Mark 8.27-9.1, which is the first time we hear Jesus speak about any of this himself)."

Those are a few examples. He also takes Paul's letters and changes many of them to actual events even though they were originally just messages from Jesus to future Christians.
Mark also uses the Kings narrative in a ring cycle that is updating the OT narrative. This is mythology.
The updated myths are blended with the updated political and theological ideas the author wanted to push. Clearly the gospels have different political agendas. Matthew wanted members to become Jewish to join and each writer advanced the supernatural aspects of the story as well.


The wisdom at times may be good advice, this does not mean the story is literally true. You seem to want to make that connection.
The Bhagavad Gita has immense wisdom, it still isn't the words of Krishna. People figured these philosophies out themselves and used myths of Gods to teach them. Same here.

Sorry not to read fully (I usually do, tho this was quite a long post), but The World Is Full of Competing Theories About the Scriptures, not just a few, but dozens.

And of course, naturally, many are quite clever seeming in and of themselves, even if they cannot generally (most all) be correct, being diverse competing ideas that are unalike and have different takes.

Hearing yet another theory stopped being of interest suddenly at a moment in time.

Why?

Here's why --> because I began testing the propositions in Mark.

Which is far more interesting and rewarding, I found.

 

[halbhh]

I've done this maybe just once or twice ever in thousands of posts, but I think it's worth responding to your individual sentences/points. So, I'll make more effort to respond in a complete way to your post.

Words from Christ teach us the 'dead are sleeping' -> John 11:11-14.

Definitely.

Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures that also teach sleep in death

Clearly so, yes. And as you probably know, taught the disciples from the scriptures (old testament, tanakh)

Afterlife means being more alive after death than before death.

We completely agree on this.

(Also, we can additionally begin to have Life and have it abundantly here and now, too. So, both of these, both here and now, and then more fully after this life.)

The living dead would Not need a resurrection, but the sleeping dead need a resurrection.- Rev. 1:18
Or, as Acts of the Apostles 24:15 teaches that there ' is going to be ' (future) a resurrection.......

Agree, if I get precisely how you mean it. Some will be alive in mortal bodies when Christ returns. Others (many) will be awakened from 'sleep'.

The 'spirits' are Not people according to ' 2 Peter 2:4 '(but angels, the disobedient angels of Noah's day )
They are the spirits of Jude 1:6.

Let's look closely at the text, being sure to get the feeling of it from context of surrounding verses:

"... 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; ...
(recommend reading the full chapter also...)
2 Peter 2 NIV

Next, Jude chapter 1 --

... 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord c at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire...."
Jude 1 NIV

Now, as we already know from reading through Revelation (if you have), Satan and his angels were bound in the "pit" (just as we read here in these 2 passages), until a moment when the next thing will happen...

That doesn't cancel 1rst Peter chapter 3:18 through chapter 4:6... of course.

Let's look closely at this passage, beginning a few verses before to be sure to get context:

... 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. e It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

And here, it's completely clear and there is no other way to interpret that fits, that the beings to whom Christ brought the proclamation of the gospel in verse 3:19 are verse 20 tells us clearly the human souls that were removed from mortal life in the Flood, and "the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." as we read in chapter 4.

It's all very clear.

And it fits perfectly that God doesn't give special chances to only some, but not others, in a way that would not be fair:

As scripture confirms:

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

God doesn't unfairly condemn all that perished in the Flood, without a chance at salvation for those willing to turn in true real faith and repentance to Christ.

Instead, He is Just and Fair, and Merciful, as scripture abundantly repeats to us.

 

[sayak83]

So, when Christ came (to bring about profound inner change of heart for those that believe in Him), it changed the basic situation in the world. God no longer does the visible miracles that even unbelievers might see and thereby change their belief, and now anyone that wants to approach Him must come through faith alone (a leap of faith) -- to believe in the one Who taught "Love one another" (and more) to us -- and meet key requirements like being humble (unassuming/ non-arrogant).

Speculatively, it might be that a nation or city that became as profoundly evil as some had 3,500 or more years back might still get destroyed, perhaps. But also, that level of evil no longer seems likely, in part because of the profound changes in the world over the millennia.

Young children, babies and women in any civilization in the past could not have been 100% evil for obvious reasons. Therefore, there can be no moral justification that I can see of wiping out entire cities and civilizations. A God who chooses to intervene is morally obliged to do so to prevent evil actions and not try to cure the harmful effects retroactively. That is what we would expect from our police also would we not? To prevent a robbery if they know if it rather than catching the robbers after the fact.
Secondly you have failed to respond to the following points:-
1) Choosing to not be with someone, even if he is God is not an evil act as it causes no harm to anyone. Killing souls for that reason is therefore entirely immoral. It shows a conception of a tribal God where loyalty to tribe leader is considered of paramount importance. It's a moral idea we have long outgrown.
2) All human crimes are finite in nature. Therefore infinite irreversible punishments violate ethics. This is true for all souls God chooses to kill permanently.

 

[halbhh]

Young children, babies and women in any civilization in the past could not have been 100% evil for obvious reasons

I stopped reading when you used an obvious strawman.

God kills innocents and doesn't bring them back to life -- that's a strawman.

Why even bother? No one is fooled.

 

[sayak83]

I stopped reading when you used an obvious strawman.

God kills innocents and doesn't bring them back to life -- that's a strawman.

Why even bother? No one is fooled.

The act of killing an innocent itself is immoral. Bringing them back to life in the second earth or something does not change that. Do you understand this?
My questions are perfectly reasonable. Whether you read them or not is upto you.
Who is fooling whom?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I've done this maybe just once or twice ever in thousands of posts, but I think it's worth responding to your individual sentences/points. So, I'll make more effort to respond in a complete way to your post.
Definitely.
Clearly so, yes. And as you probably know, taught the disciples from the scriptures (old testament, tanakh)
We completely agree on this.
(Also, we can additionally begin to have Life and have it abundantly here and now, too. So, both of these, both here and now, and then more fully after this life.)
Agree, if I get precisely how you mean it. Some will be alive in mortal bodies when Christ returns. Others (many) will be awakened from 'sleep'.
Let's look closely at the text, being sure to get the feeling of it from context of surrounding verses:
"... 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; ...
(recommend reading the full chapter also...)
2 Peter 2 NIV
Next, Jude chapter 1 --
... 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord c at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire...."
Jude 1 NIV
Now, as we already know from reading through Revelation (if you have), Satan and his angels were bound in the "pit" (just as we read here in these 2 passages), until a moment when the next thing will happen...
That doesn't cancel 1rst Peter chapter 3:18 through chapter 4:6... of course.
Let's look closely at this passage, beginning a few verses before to be sure to get context:
... 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. e It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
And here, it's completely clear and there is no other way to interpret that fits, that the beings to whom Christ brought the proclamation of the gospel in verse 3:19 are verse 20 tells us clearly the human souls that were removed from mortal life in the Flood, and "the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." as we read in chapter 4.
And it fits perfectly that God doesn't give special chances to only some, but not others, in a way that would not be fair:
As scripture confirms:
Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.
God doesn't unfairly condemn all that perished in the Flood, without a chance at salvation for those willing to turn in true real faith and repentance to Christ.
Instead, He is Just and Fair, and Merciful, as scripture abundantly repeats to us.

Yes, God is Not partial (show favoritism ) for all can be acceptable to Him.
There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The only ones destroyed are the 'wicked' according to Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
This is why Matthew 20:28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all or everyone.

I find we need to take note of 2 Peter 2:4 because the Greek word there is Not the word for hell /grave.
It is the word ' Tar'ta.rus ' ( like a holding 'pit ', so to speak ).
So, those fallen angels are in bonds of darkness - Jude 1:6
They will have the same fate as sinner Satan - Revelation 20:2
Then, Jesus will destroy wicked sinner Satan - Hebrews 2:14; Romans 16:20
Thus, in Scripture 'fire ' can stand for: forever destruction.