Jammu and Kashmir

[ronki23]

I'm having difficulty understanding why Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh are considered one state: Jammu is Hindu majority while Kashmir is Muslim majority. The Hindu King of Jammu and Kashmir chose India while the terms of partition were that any states with a Muslim majority will go to Pakistan. Why isn't Kashmir part of Pakistan (Muslim majority) and Jammu (Hindu majority) and Ladakh (Buddhist majority) part of India ? Why are they one state and not 2 (Kashmir and Ladakh / Jammu) ?

 

[ronki23]

@The Hammer I think there's been Human Rights violations on both sides simply because the Jammu and Leh population wants to be with India while the Kashmir population wants to be with Pakistan. It is a miniaturised version of the partition of India.

According to Wikipedia (a website ANYONE can edit):

India was responsible for:

1990 Gwakadal Massacre where 50 - 280 Kashmiris were killed by the CRPF

1990 Handhwara Massacre where 21 Kashmiris were killed by India's Border Security Force

1993 Sopore Massacre where at least 43 Kashmiris were killed by India's Border Security Force

1993 Bijbhehara Massacre were 51 civilians were killed by India's Border Security Force

Pakistan was responsible for:

The kidnapping and murder of an unnamed Doctor

The kidnapping and murder of Dr Rizwan

The assasination of Sardar Arif Shahid (President of All Parties National Alliance)

100 people being injured during an Independence rally in 2019

Tanveer Ahmed (a British National) was arrested, detained and tortured by Pakistani police

In January 2021 2000 Kashmiri teachers rallied for a pay rise only to be beaten up by the police with 68 arrested

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm having difficulty understanding why Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh are considered one state.

Ronki, you do not read history minutely. In states which were ruled by native rulers (Rajas, Nawabs), it was the native ruler who could decide. That is why Umarkot (in Sindh), a Hindu majority state went to Pakistan. And that is why Indian government considers Jammu & Kashmir, including Ladakh, and areas currently occupied by Pakistan (the so-called Azad Kashmir, Gilgit and Baltistan) as part of India.

Jammu & Kashmir, at present, is a 'union territory', under the administration of Central government, while Ladakh (and Kargil) has been carved into a separate 'union territory'. Both the territories will most probably have elections towards this winter.

 

[Valjean]

Didn't the partition agreement stipulate that there was to be an election in these disputed territories, to decide their political alliance?
Such an election never happened.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Didn't the partition agreement stipulate that there was to be an election in these disputed territories, to decide their political alliance?

No, it did not, except in two British administered areas.
1. District of Sylhet in Bengal. In spite of its Hindu majority, it chose to join East Pakistan (because of Bengali-Assamese antipathy) - and later paid the price for its choice (many Hindus had to migrate to India because of Muslim intolerance).
2. North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan (presently named as Pakhtunkhwa). Pakhtuns chose to join Pakistan.

Partition of India was a quick slip-shod work, which left behind many anomalies. Khulna in East Pakistan was a Hindu majority region. Murshidabad in India was a Muslim majority district. Similarly, Chittagong, a Buddhist majority region had to go to East Pakistan (later most Chittagong Buddhists, the Chakmas, migrated to India).

 

[sayak83]

I'm having difficulty understanding why Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh are considered one state: Jammu is Hindu majority while Kashmir is Muslim majority. The Hindu King of Jammu and Kashmir chose India while the terms of partition were that any states with a Muslim majority will go to Pakistan. Why isn't Kashmir part of Pakistan (Muslim majority) and Jammu (Hindu majority) and Ladakh (Buddhist majority) part of India ? Why are they one state and not 2 (Kashmir and Ladakh / Jammu) ?

View attachment 64999 View attachment 65000

Nationalism and rational decision making does not mix, that is why.

 

[ronki23]

Nationalism and rational decision making does not mix, that is why.

@Aupmanyav

I'd like to hear more about the Muslim war heroes in the Indian military. I hear some have been given very prestigious awards for their duty to India

 

[ronki23]

I can't take Khalistanis seriously after hearing their support for Pakistan / an independent Kashmir : Guru Tegh Bahadur, Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das and Bhai Dayala were murdered by Kashmiri Muslims

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nationalism and rational decision making does not mix, that is why.

Beg to differ, Sayak. There is no conflict between nationalism and rational decision making, otherwise tell us how. Nationalism itself is a rational decision, trying to preserve one's country.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav
I'd like to hear more about the Muslim war heroes in the Indian military. I hear some have been given very prestigious awards for their duty to India

Company Quarter Master Havildar Abdul Hamid leads the list with the highest Indian Gallantry award, Paramvir Chakra for his bravery in Khemkaran in the 1965 war. Brigadier Mohammad Usman got Mahavira Chakra for his bravery in Kashmir war, also civilian porter, Mohammad Ismail. Lt. Gen. Mohammad Ahmad Zaki, Fl. Lt. Abdul Naseer Hanfee and Capt. Haneefuddin, my personal favorite who was killed in the Kargil war, received Vir Chakra.

 

[sayak83]

Beg to differ, Sayak. There is no conflict between nationalism and rational decision making, otherwise tell us how. Nationalism itself is a rational decision, trying to preserve one's country.

Dividing the administration of the peoples' of the world into smaller administrative units we call nations has utility and is convenient. Creating emotional identities, spiritual and mystical mythologies and fates around such artificial constructs is positively dangerous. More wars, more deaths and more suffering have been caused on the pretext of nationalism than any other ideology in the history of the world.

My solution is: sure have nations but ditch nationalism. That will bring true peace and prosperity to the world with all its nations.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is it possible to ditch nationalism or even religion? Ask China, ask Abrahamics. Perhaps some will stab you in the back. That is a utopian idea. The world is what it is.

 

[ronki23]

@The Hammer @Valjean @sayak83 @Aupmanyav

I have read that in 1947 in Jammu there was a mass genocide of Muslims by both RSS and Akali Dal. Is this true?

 

[sayak83]

@The Hammer @Valjean @sayak83 @Aupmanyav

I have read that in 1947 in Jammu there was a mass genocide of Muslims by both RSS and Akali Dal. Is this true?

I do not know if RSS or Akali Dal was involved, but yes there was. It was also attended by a massacre of Hindus and Sikhs of roughly equal magnitude in the western provinces of Kashmir. Reasonably accurate info here
1947 Jammu massacres - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

What would @The Hammer or @Valjean would know about it, but the Kabaili raiders looted and killed irrespective of what religion people belonged to. Yes, as @sayak83 said, ffter Hindus and Sikhs were massacred in Pakistan, Muslims were killed in Jammu too.

 

[ronki23]

I do not know if RSS or Akali Dal was involved, but yes there was. It was also attended by a massacre of Hindus and Sikhs of roughly equal magnitude in the western provinces of Kashmir. Reasonably accurate info here
1947 Jammu massacres - Wikipedia

What would @The Hammer or @Valjean would know about it, but the Kabaili raiders looted and killed irrespective of what religion people belonged to. Yes, as @sayak83 said, ffter Hindus and Sikhs were massacred in Pakistan, Muslims were killed in Jammu too.

So my official stance is Muslims aren't all bad and neither is Islam. However, I'm still annoyed a sizeable number of them refuse to blame Al Qaeda for 9/11 and think it was an inside job. Therin my frustration lies

 

[Aupmanyav]

I agree with you when you say that all Muslims are not bad. I am a sort of recluse after my retirement, but I had a very good Muslim friend in college. Of course, in India, Muslims are a part of life. I remember my father's Muslims friends and colleagues and our electricians here in Delhi (The first one was followed by his brother-in-law. This gentleman has performed the Haj pilgrimage) have always been Muslims, and on my request always greets me with "As-salamu alaykum") .