It's not that I am asking to abandon the Bible in that way, I believe most of the Bible is intact and only some of it corrupted. I mean their focus should be on Quran and that to me is because it's the truth.
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Jehovah witnesses and their approach and Quran
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It's not that I am asking to abandon the Bible in that way, I believe most of the Bible is intact and only some of it corrupted. I mean their focus should be on Quran and that to me is because it's the truth.
firedragon
Veteran Member
But what is said is to take up the Quran with the same approach JW's have taken with the Bible.
I am not propagating this statement, I am only saying that it is not saying to abandon Jesus, but the Bible.
But of course you are going to begin a new debate of Jesus in the Bible vs the Jesus in the Quran or something like that so I am not interested in that in this thread.
Peace.
James wrote the letter to “the twelve tribes that are scattered about,” literally, “the (ones) in the dispersion.” (James 1:1) He here addresses his spiritual “brothers,” those who hold to “the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ,” primarily those Christians living beyond Palestine. (James 1:2; 2:1,7; 5:7)
James bases much of his argument on the Hebrew Scriptures, but this does not prove that his letter was only for Jewish Christians. His reference to Abraham as “our father” (2:21) is in harmony with Paul’s words at Galatians 3:28-29, where he shows that one’s being of the true seed of Abraham is not determined by whether one is a Jew or a Greek. Therefore, “the twelve tribes” addressed are the spiritual “Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16)
James’ purpose in writing seems to have been twofold: (1) to exhort his fellow believers to display faith and endurance amid their trials, and (2) to warn them against sins resulting in divine disapproval.
His letter contains valuable counsel for all Christians, including the “faith verses works” argument. We clearly need both, like Abraham. Faith comes first and our works back up our faith.....the reward can never be “earned” by works alone, nor by faith alone, as James makes clear.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Why do you think God would want people to unlock a book written several centuries after the one he gave his people?
That is a very nice comment to make but I have to wonder why you do not have this situation in your own religion if you believe it is the correct one? Islam appears to be almost as fractured and as full of infighting as Christendom is.
Jews hate Christians, Christians hate Muslims, Muslims hate Jews, Hindus hate Muslims....my goodness.....what good is a religion if it does not bring peace to its brotherhood?Jehovah's Witnesses are the most peaceful Christians on earth because we adhere closely to Christ's teachings....nothing can make us resort to violence, either religious or politically motivated.
How is Islam a superior religion to any other, or its holy writings superior, if no one follows it to the letter?
Is what you are suggesting, that your own faith should demonstrate the same adherence to scripture and obedience to God as JW's do? If so, we thank you for noticing....but can't help but wonder why your own faith cannot achieve this if your God is backing you?
I do not believe that JW's are similar to Islam however, apart from our mutual acceptance of the writings of Moses. We believe that Jesus was "the prophet like Moses" whom Moses himself foretold. (Deuteronomy 18:15)
But the scriptures clearly point to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as recipients of the promise. (Exodus 2:23-24)
Ishmael was not mentioned with regard to the covenant with Abraham. Isaac was the one through whom the promise was to come. We do not recognize any other prophet after Jesus, as he fulfilled all the prophesies.
Please understand that we have "beliefs" that are not "doctrines". When there are no direct statements regarding any matter in the Bible, we will use the scriptures and our understanding of them to formulate a belief based on a wide angle approach, allowing the rest of the scriptures themselves to determine what we should believe. All the available information gleaned from those scriptures suggests that Jesus has many names and titles, depending upon which role he is fulfilling. He is called "the Word" (Logos in Greek) because we believe that he was appointed as God's 'spokesman' (i.e. speaking God's words to others) "in the beginning". The beginning of what? We believe that he was the "beginning of God's creation". (Revelation 3:14) He had a pre-human existence as it is stated in the scriptures, but he was not a deity. He was a servant of his God and father.
We do not accept that Jesus was God incarnate, but we do believe as our scripture teaches, that Jesus' surrendering his human life, accomplished what no other human could do....that is to offer his life on behalf of others, redeeming them out of a condition of slavery to sin and death.
The legal precedent codified by Moses in referring to the mode of payment for infractions of the Law—“life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth”. This reflects the guiding principle applied by God himself in solving the question of man’s salvation. (Deuteronomy 19:21) A perfect (sinless) man, Adam, had been responsible for the condemnation of the whole human race, so another perfect (sinless) man was needed to atone for this loss by surrendering his life. Thus his death would perfectly atone for Adam’s sin and its consequences for mankind.
I find no contradictions in the Bible, but I do find misinterpretations that contradict it.
In answer to the question there....Jesus had already proven himself loyal to his God, right up to his last breath.....the path of a true martyr. But the Kings of Israel, like Saul, Jehoiakim and Zedekiah, were guilty of not remaining faithful to their God. None were chosen before their birth. God had actually warned Israel that a human King would be an unnecessary burden to them, but they insisted because they wanted to have a human King like the other nations. These kings often led the people down very bad paths, resulting in very harsh punishments for the people.
Not sure I do understand, but hope you will clarify.
We believe that all the prophets are dead and will remain in their graves until the resurrection, which will take place after Christ's promised return. Jesus was the only one resurrected to heaven, but others would follow later....and he will call all the dead from their graves when he takes over his Kingship of the earth. The dead are all still sleeping. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
Not sure I understand this point either....Elijah in the gospels is used figuratively and representatively, like John the Baptist was likened to Elijah (Matthew 17:12) because he did a similar work..... and Elijah's appearance at the Transfiguration was also symbolic as representatives of the foundations upon which God's Kingdom is built were represented. Jesus as God's appointed King...Moses representing the Law....and Elijah representing the prophets.
Do you not think that if God was behind your people, then would they be showing themselves to be similarly motivated and blessed with peace and global harmony with their spiritual brothers and sisters, as we are?
We claim no credit for our knowledge or unity of beliefs and purpose, because it has all come from God through his Messiah....our King.
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Shakeel
Well-Known Member
If you'd been there 2000 years ago with the power and the population, the chances are you would have gone to war - both religiously and politically motivated.
I believe Prophets and Messengers God has entrusted humanity their teachings and his revelations through them, but that God wants to see who will help his cause. I believe Muslims failed to uphold the trust of the leadership of the family of Mohammad (s) and Shiites also didn't take it seriously that we should only attribute God the truth nor did they rally hard enough and help God's religion enough. As a result we are in the situation we are in, where we attribute God and his religion things we don't know and are not sincere in letting Quran contextualize it's own signs and proofs.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I would like to understand why you believe that some of the Bible is corrupted.
How can God's word that he gave his people be corrupted?
Is it not the case that it is the teachers of God's word who can be corrupted?
Why would God let people corrupt his word, so that he has to write out something else? Would that not become corrupted too?
That does not sound like the God Moses, and Jesus spoke of.
When we read the Tanakh for example, we read this...
Jeremiah 23
1 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!”...
11 “Both the prophet and the priest are polluted..."
15 Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says against the prophets:
“Here I am making them eat wormwood
And giving them poisoned water to drink.
For from the prophets of Jerusalem apostasy has spread throughout the land.”
16 This is what Jehovah of armies says:
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.
They are deluding you.
The vision they speak is from their own heart,
Not from the mouth of Jehovah.
Recall that it was not the book of the law that was corrupted, but the people had deviated from what was written - God's word.
(2 Kings 22:11-13) 11 As soon as the king heard the words of the book of the Law, he ripped his garments apart. 12 Then the king gave this order to Hil·kiʹah the priest, A·hiʹkam the son of Shaʹphan, Achʹbor the son of Mi·caiʹah, Shaʹphan the secretary, and A·saiʹah the king’s servant: 13 “Go, inquire of Jehovah in my behalf, in behalf of the people, and in behalf of all Judah concerning the words of this book that has been found; for Jehovah’s rage that has been set ablaze against us is great, because our forefathers did not obey the words of this book by observing all that is written concerning us.”
All throughout the Tanakh, we see that the problem was always the people. It was never God's word.
(Malachi 3:7) From the days of your forefathers you have turned aside from my regulations and have not kept them. . . .
(1 Kings 11:9-13) 9 Jehovah became furious at Solomon, because his heart had inclined away from Jehovah the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice 10 and had warned him about this very thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not obey what Jehovah had commanded. 11 Jehovah now said to Solomon: “Because you have done this and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes as I commanded you, I will surely rip the kingdom away from you, and I will give it to one of your servants. 12 However, for the sake of your father David, I will not do it in your lifetime. I will rip it out of the hand of your son, 13 but I will not rip away the entire kingdom. One tribe I will give to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen.”
God's word cannot become corrupted.
God abandons those who do not keep his word. He does not abandon his word.
(Acts 7:51-53) 51 “Obstinate men and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, you are always resisting the holy spirit; as your forefathers did, so you do. 52 Which one of the prophets did your forefathers not persecute? Yes, they killed those who announced in advance the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become, 53 you who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.”
(Matthew 23:37, 38) 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her - how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.
He restores pure worship by means of his word. Never has he ever had to rewrite his word... except on one occasion, when Moses shattered the tablets, but he rewrote the same word... no changes.
So why would you think that The Quran is somehow, a rewrite of God's word with changes?
That does not follow, does it?
It follows that corrupt men would try to change God's word, by adding or taking away from it.
This is repeated in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
(Deuteronomy 4:2) You must not add to the word that I am commanding you, neither must you take away from it, so as to keep the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you.
(Deuteronomy 12:32) Every word that I am commanding you is what you should be careful to do. You must not add to it nor take away from it.
(Revelation 22:18, 19) 18 “I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things that are written about in this scroll.
So evidently, we need to heed the words in the Bible, and avoid new writings, which can easily masquerade as truth.
Is that not a reasonable consideration?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Maybe its not Gods word
nPeace
Veteran Member
Maybe you will find out later.
firedragon
Veteran Member
See, you provided enough reasons to know its not gods word.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Assertion noted.
For example, Aaron, the Bible prepares for the covenant regarding him and his offspring, and than God turns 180 on the covenant with him. This is while it talked about in a way as if the talk of the offspring of Abraham and covenant with him was analogous now to the offspring of Aaron and covenant with that.
I believe also Saul would not be set as king by a Prophet if he was not chosen by God.
And things like slavery once allowed are signs of corruption that goes against it's central argument.
The Quran proves through reasoning God sent Prophets in all times and in all sorts of places. If their revelations have been lost or corrupted, it's to no surprise if Jews and Christians corrupted their holy text as well.
You are also doing it from the paradigm that Jesus is the last sent one by God. If it was true, it would be essential that the Bible not be corrupted, but this is not the case from Islamic point of view.
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When people of Abrahamic faiths talk about dead in a way dead can't contact us anymore, they look foolish in my view to all the pagans for example who know this is simply not true, because people see dead people all the time and contact them all the time, and it's not demons sorry.
The demons are one thing, and human spirits are something else.
There is a battle between good and evil, and dead people don't know the truth yet, they somewhat are augmented understanding into things, but still don't fully know truth as the clear proof is to be displayed on the day of judgment.
Those who blind in this world, remain blind in grave life, and will choose the dark demons and Satan and the evil humans, over that of the chosen anointed ones and their followers and Angels, just as they did in this world.
Only on the day of judgment do people acknowledge the truth. The barrier between dead and living, is that, they can't come to the world per their own will and manifest themselves physically. That is it, otherwise, they are spiritually connected, be they good or bad.
The polytheists who do ancestors worship and worship angels in their view, it's not what they see is not there, it's that they aren't taking authority of God's Prophets and anointed Kings and are opposing them, being blind to the glory and beauty of God due to giving into passions.
It's not that Satan doesn't have hearing nor seeing in this sense that Ibrahim says "why do you worship what doesn't hear nor..." and then says "do not worship Satan..." it's that Satan himself is blind to the truth and runs away from wisdom and can't hear it.
This world is like the foundation, but the battle continues after death, between good and evil, and so we should ask God to help us by obedient spirits to him from Angels and humans and dead humans.
Anyways, Elijah (a) coming back is to show he is back, John (a) was used to prove this because he is saying before him (Jesus) there is a Guide and since he is leaving it proves Elijah (a) is back, Moses (a) coming back is to show Jesus (a) is a successor of Moses (a) and Moses (a) testifies. So those who claim to follow either but don't follow Jesus (a), follow really their priests and scholars.
In this day and age, you can ask Moses (a) and Jesus (a) to guide you, and they will, they will guide you to Mohammad (a) and his family (a). You can ask them anything pertaining to what they taught and they will guide you, Moses (a), John the baptist (a) or Elijah (a) or Jesus (a).
This cutting of the dead chosen kings of the past, is a way, to give authority to normal people and cut ourselves from the guides who been chosen.
Yes, if we are not ready, we may accuse the Prophets (a) of the past of being sorcerers and side with the evil ones against them, but this is a leap of faith in ourselves we just got to take and hope we remain true to the Prophets (a) and the Leaders (a) chosen by God.
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If I had become a Christian 2000 years ago, I would still have followed the teachings of Jesus who said we must love even our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-44) You cannot hate anyone enough to kill them. You can dislike what people do, but you cannot hate the person and harbour malice towards them.
The Jews in Jesus’ day were dispersed, and their homeland was occupied by Rome. They had no military force. They had dissidents, but no organised military. Jesus never encouraged opposition to the government, but said that the “Gentile Times” (prophesied by Daniel) must run their course. (Luke 21:24)
We were admonished to obey the laws of the land, but never to allow them to override God’s laws.
Jesus never once promoted political opposition or violence because he said that his Kingdom was not of this world and therefore no earthly kingdom was worth killing for. Those who shed blood without God’s sanction (which he has not done since the time of ancient Israel) will account to God for that. (Isaiah 1:15)
It is always interesting to me that the ancient Hebrews did not believe in life after death. Their scripture tells us that they did not believe the soul and the spirit to mean the same thing, and that “souls” are living, breathing creatures....never does the word “soul” refer to a disembodied spirit. Animals are called souls. They have the same expectancy as we do. They breathe the same air and die the same death. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
The only “spirits” who are alive and conscious are God’s angels, some of whom became demons by abusing their free will as satan did. It was satan who told the woman...”you surely will not die”.....that was a lie.
The other uses of the word “spirit” have to do with things unseen but are not persons. The spirit that is in man is that which animates him....it is the breath in his lungs that begins at birth and ends when the last breath is taken. In Eden, it was this spirit or “breath of life” that made a dead body (Adam) into a living “soul”.
There are no such things as “human spirits” that live on after death. Our scriptures do not teach this as a concept. Where did God tell Adam that he would go if he disobeyed?
Genesis 3:19...
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” There is no mention of an afterlife, not heaven or hell.....just life or death.
The idea of an immortal soul came from the pagan Greeks, not from God.
Those who die are “sleeping” according to Jesus, who taught resurrection and even performed them. Read the account about Lazarus....
John 11:11-14...
“11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”...
Jesus performed a “resurrection”, returning his friend to human life, which is what the ancient Jews believed in, but who were also corrupted in later times by the influence of false religions....something that plagued their history.
Resurrection is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it.
Why would it? Death is often a welcome release from this world with all its troubles....why would such troubles continue after death. The dead are in an unconscious state according to Solomon.....
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10...
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.”
All consciousness ceases at death....and what a blessing that is for them. If they were still alive and watching what is happening to their loved ones and the degradation of this earth, how would heaven ever be a happy place?
The only person who intercedes for us with God is the resurrected Jesus Christ. He is the only mediator ever mentioned for Christians to take their prayers to God.
God guides us through his son....and his teachings are recorded for us in our scripture....we need nothing more because the Bible takes us up to the present day, and all the foretold troubles of our time....and the destruction of this wicked system of things....and a thousand years into the future to enjoy the peaceful reign of God’s Kingdom.
There is no need for additional prophets or scripture because these are additions that have no proof that they are from God. They contradict the scripture we already have. The Bible gives us ample proof of its inspiration, just through prophesy alone. The teachings of Jesus cannot be surpassed as if he had no time to tell us all we need to know in order to gain salvation.
I can see clearly that you are very sincere, but I believe that the Bible alone is the only communication we have from God. It contains one truth and salvation to only one group of people....those who obey all the teachings of God through his holy scripture. Accepting Jesus as our Lord is not the only thing required. There needs to be actions to back up the words. (Matthew 7:21-23)
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nPeace
Veteran Member
Oh. I see. So you do not believe The words of the Qur'an? "...He sent down the Torah and the Gospel"
Or do you believe, but hold another view?
I have read in the Qur'an of people being corrupted, but just wondering, where in the Qur'an does it say the Torah, Writings, and Gospels are corrupted?
You do not believe the writings of Paul either, I am assuming? (2 Timothy 3:16) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God. . . (2 Peter 1:21) . . .For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.
Shakeel
Well-Known Member
So you wouldn't defend yourself in war? You wouldn't defend your children if they were attacked? There are many kinds of hatred. There is personal hatred and hatred for the sake of God, and even, for the sake of your children and your people.
If your country was seized, you were taken captive, tortured and starved for years, you and your family, and all unspeakable things were done to you and your people — are you going to claim you would feel no hatred and you imagine you should feel no hatred? Why did Jesus get angry at the money changers? Shouldn't he have "loved his enemies"?
And what is up with Luke 22:36? "He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
How would I defend myself in a war? I would never be part of the military because you cannot "love your enemies" with weapons. Jesus never advocated violence under any circumstances.
Personally I would defend them as best I could without violence. If I use violence to fight violence, how am I any better than my attacker?
We are not to harbor any feelings of hatred towards anyone. We can hate what God hates but we are to express hatred towards no one. We love our enemies by being kind to them, even if they are not kind to us.
The admonition for Christians is....
"Return evil for evil to no one. Take into consideration what is fine from the viewpoint of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends on you, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says Jehovah.” 20 But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals on his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good." (Romans 12:17-21)
That takes more courage than retaliation.
Many in my brotherhood are persecuted in countries around the world as we speak. They are imprisoned and beaten and taken from their wives and families, hundreds of miles away, for years at a time. They conquer their enemies by not becoming angry. They will refuse to return evil for evil. This is proof of their love for God and his Christ.
Any idiot can get mad.....it take real faith to keep your cool under pressure, but by means of God's spirit they conquer like Jesus did.....even if it means their life.
What Jesus expressed was righteous indignation.....these thieves were exploiting their own brothers by extorting money from them for the overpriced sacrificial animals that were being sold right in the Temple for profit. He had every right to be angry about that level of desecration of his Father's house....they had made it into "a den of thieves".
They came back with two swords remember? And was this going to fend off an armed mob? NO! The swords were to demonstrate that even though they were armed, they would not resort to violence, but Peter being the impetuous man that he was, took out his sword and cut off the ear of the High Priest's servant....Jesus rebuked Peter and told him to "return the sword to its place" because "those who live by the sword will die by the sword"....and then he healed the man.
If you know the Bible, everything has an answer.