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Jehovah

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
If it is incorrect it is a falsehood! Do you think God is happy for his "name" to being associated with those falsehoods? Look at up old watchtower publications and tell me if God is happy with watchtower teachings that black people are not equal to white people, that if a woman doesn't scream while she is being raped she has committed fornication?

i'd like to see the references to what you are refering to there


But its the mosaic law which states that a woman who does not scream or fight off her attacker is charged with fornication. The reasoning is that if she doesnt fight him, she is being complicit. But anyway, let me know what WT articles you are refering to.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
And why does the JW refer to the guy as "Jesus"? Not using his real name seems so disrespectful.
Seeing as how there is no "J" in the Hebrew language, we would have to get rid of every "J" word in the entire English translation of the scriptures, including Jesus.

Every name that incorporates the Divine Name, (a common practice) would have to be changed...but why would they? If it is a legitimate translation into English, then why carry on about how a name is pronounced in one language but not pronounced the same way in another? Is the name Peter, Pierre or Pedro not different translations of the same name. In their own language they are perfectly legitimate as any foreign language Bible will demonstrate.

When you read passages in an English translation of the OT and then compare it with the Orthodox Jewish Bible, all the names are different, but is the English translation of those names somehow invalid because English speaking people don't say them the same way?

I can't see the problem. :confused:
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |

Dear Gods, geez I hate eugenics and racial-supremacism. I wish it was eradicated a long time ago.

Horrorble, did you know that in the past (and even now), the following phrase was/is mostly said this way? Check this out:

He/she is "Black but beautiful".

The "but" should be eradicated. It's insulting, racist, and totally messed up. I can't believe that in 2013 C.E., we still have these problems. Completely despicable.


If a female doesn't complain or fight back while being raped is fornicating???!!!!

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. If that is what they really said, I am in shock right now. The logic of those statements is so unsound, that I....I....I....

EDIT: To be fair -
from source said:
Viewing the quotes chronologically reveals that in more recent decades the Watchtower promotes racial equality and the first black Governing Body member, Samuel Herd, was appointed in 1999.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Watchtower 1964 January 15 pp.63-4 Questions from Readers

.....But suppose the man had a weapon and threatened to kill the girl if she failed to lie down with him? These scriptures do not weaken the argument or alter the situation by citing any circumstance that would justify her in not screaming. It plainly says she should scream; hence, oppose the attack regardless of the circumstances......Such Scriptural precedents are applicable to Christians, who are under command, "Flee from fornication."

There is more.

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/rape-fornication.php

Awake! 1984 February 22 pp.24-7 They Resisted Rapists

The man stopped pushing me and asked what the scripture meant. So I explained that if I resisted him and remained faithful to my God and my husband, and was killed for this faithfulness, I would have a hope of being resurrected to a Paradise earth and everlasting life. But if I gave in and he raped me, I would eventually die and have no hope of a resurrection.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student

Pegg has covered the "rape" scenario as being Biblical, according to Jehovah's laws given to Israel. Though today it applies more in principle.
Things in today's world are not quite as "black and white" as they were in former times. Each case is taken on its own merits and circumstances. Harking back to old articles is hardly addressing today's situation. It's a very different world to the one our grandparent grew up in.

As for the "black skinned" people, most everything that was said in those articles (if they are quoted without editing) was true at the time. Look at the dates when these things were published. It was a completely different world, with completely different attitudes. It was not JW's who discriminated against "Negroes". If colored people had attempted to witness to whites back then, what do you suppose would have happened to them? They witnessed to their own and brought them out of their segregated churches and into the Christian congregation.

It was the 'whites' who put the 'blacks' into that uneducated, and unequal class. It was true that they were not equal in the education system and were deprived of many human rights at that time, but there was nothing to suggest that they were somehow less able to worship their God acceptably than their caucasian brothers. It was their educational deficiency that worked against them. Many had to learn to read in order to benefit from Bible study.

In Australia we have Aboriginal and Islander groups. Why? Because many of them have a deep distrust of whites...and not without reason. We too mistreated our indigenous peoples and stole their land and their children. It has left deep scars on many of them.
They flourish in their own congregations, but this does not mean that Aboriginal people are not welcome to worship with their white skinned brothers. They at least have a choice.

For black Americans, this is worse because they were kidnapped from their own land and forced into slavery by rich white men in a foreign country with a foreign language. When the slaves were finally "freed", their slavery continued by having to endure life in an unequal system that discriminated against everything they tried to do to better themselves. Look how long it took for African Americans to gain any kind of equality. To this day, in the south I believe that some churches are still segregated.

I had a southern fellow complain to me once about Witnesses going around preaching door to door. He said he knew they were Jehovah's Witnesses because blacks and whites were out together. He said it with disdain, but we are proud to have people of all races and from all backgrounds in our spiritual family.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One


are these really the articles? seriously?


Just as a point on the rape subject.... so are you saying that if someone tried to rape you, you'd stay quiet and comply with it? Who would do that?

The natural reaction, i would imagine, is to try and fight off the attacker and yell out for help. Who would seriously say 'ok, go ahead and rape me, i'll just sit here and be quiet' ???

The point the WT is making is that when under such threat, a woman would try to make noise and try to fight off an attack. However, it does say if she is unconscious then it doesnt apply.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How does a rape take away a person's hope of the resurrection? Why would that quote be printed for the world to learn from? What is it teaching? Isn't it believed to be true that the Watchtower is for teaching believers God's way?

But if I gave in and he raped me, I would eventually die and have no hope of a resurrection.

Even if she "gave in" to have sex with the man, how is fornication a crime with no forgiveness?
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
How does a rape take away a person's hope of the resurrection? Why would that quote be printed for the world to learn from? What is it teaching? Isn't it believed to be true that the Watchtower is for teaching believers God's way?



Even if she "gave in" to have sex with the man, how is fornication a crime with no forgiveness?

that was her own personal experience and how she felt.... its not a WT teaching.

Stop twisting things to suit your agenda.
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
are these really the articles? seriously?


Just as a point on the rape subject.... so are you saying that if someone tried to rape you, you'd stay quiet and comply with it? Who would do that?

The natural reaction, i would imagine, is to try and fight off the attacker and yell out for help. Who would seriously say 'ok, go ahead and rape me, i'll just sit here and be quiet' ???

The point the WT is making is that when under such threat, a woman would try to make noise and try to fight off an attack. However, it does say if she is unconscious then it doesnt apply.

Do you have access to the WT library? maybe you can find the articles. The websites reference every quote right down to the page number.

If a rapist threatened me with a weapon an said if I screamed they would kill me, maybe I would not scream, I can not say how I would act I have not been in that situation, but would I want to live yes and may do what is necessary to save my life. The articles are saying that if a woman does not keep screaming through out her rape she has committed fornication, what do you think about that? I don't judge how rape victims react out of fear and pain, do you?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
that was her own personal experience and how she felt.... its not a WT teaching.

Stop twisting things to suit your agenda.

Why was it not edited to say she was wrong? Is she wrong? Is the Watchtower for teaching? If she was wrong why didn't the Watchtower the savior of the world (your agenda - God help us) correct it?
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3551494 said:
Dear Gods, geez I hate eugenics and racial-supremacism. I wish it was eradicated a long time ago.

Horrorble, did you know that in the past (and even now), the following phrase was/is mostly said this way? Check this out:

He/she is "Black but beautiful".

The "but" should be eradicated. It's insulting, racist, and totally messed up. I can't believe that in 2013 C.E., we still have these problems. Completely despicable.



If a female doesn't complain or fight back while being raped is fornicating???!!!!

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. If that is what they really said, I am in shock right now. The logic of those statements is so unsound, that I....I....I....

EDIT: To be fair -
The WT does not hold this views today, but they used to and in my opinion they disrespected Gods name by associating it with such teachings.
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
Why was it not edited to say she was wrong? Is she wrong? Is the Watchtower for teaching? If she was wrong why didn't the Watchtower the savior of the world (your agenda - God help us) correct it?

They used her shame as an example of why you should scream, it was obviously implied that this is the kind of self hatred a Christian woman will feel for herself if she does not resist even when threatened with death, so it is best to resist and risk being killed because the rapist may kill you anyway...
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
FYI My agenda is wishing to see the Jehovah's Witnesses admit they are really led by men. Not God and not Jesus Christ. Is that it? Or is there more according to you?

What is my agenda?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The WT does not hold this views today, but they used to and in my opinion they disrespected Gods name by associating it with such teachings.

They never 'held' such views nor did they teach them.

From those quotes given, the WT was describing the general view of the time and explaining why they had made certain decisions.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
I hope all of you understand that I know 0% (and I mean 0%, as in -100%) about JWs/WT. And, I commend JWs/WT for not holding those racist views anymore. However, if a JWs/WT can clarify more on the topic about a female getting raped and being held accountable for being raped ... I would understand this situation a little bit better. Also, in our diverse and growing world, it has been clearly demonstrated that both men and women can be rape victims as well as perpetrators of rape. Therefore, would the situation of a female being held accountable for fornication if she didn't harshly/vehemently resist apply to a male victim as well?
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
Pegg has covered the "rape" scenario as being Biblical, according to Jehovah's laws given to Israel. Though today it applies more in principle.
Things in today's world are not quite as "black and white" as they were in former times. Each case is taken on its own merits and circumstances. Harking back to old articles is hardly addressing today's situation. It's a very different world to the one our grandparent grew up in.

As for the "black skinned" people, most everything that was said in those articles (if they are quoted without editing) was true at the time. Look at the dates when these things were published. It was a completely different world, with completely different attitudes. It was not JW's who discriminated against "Negroes". If colored people had attempted to witness to whites back then, what do you suppose would have happened to them? They witnessed to their own and brought them out of their segregated churches and into the Christian congregation.

It was the 'whites' who put the 'blacks' into that uneducated, and unequal class. It was true that they were not equal in the education system and were deprived of many human rights at that time, but there was nothing to suggest that they were somehow less able to worship their God acceptably than their caucasian brothers. It was their educational deficiency that worked against them. Many had to learn to read in order to benefit from Bible study.

In Australia we have Aboriginal and Islander groups. Why? Because many of them have a deep distrust of whites...and not without reason. We too mistreated our indigenous peoples and stole their land and their children. It has left deep scars on many of them.
They flourish in their own congregations, but this does not mean that Aboriginal people are not welcome to worship with their white skinned brothers. They at least have a choice.

For black Americans, this is worse because they were kidnapped from their own land and forced into slavery by rich white men in a foreign country with a foreign language. When the slaves were finally "freed", their slavery continued by having to endure life in an unequal system that discriminated against everything they tried to do to better themselves. Look how long it took for African Americans to gain any kind of equality. To this day, in the south I believe that some churches are still segregated.

I had a southern fellow complain to me once about Witnesses going around preaching door to door. He said he knew they were Jehovah's Witnesses because blacks and whites were out together. He said it with disdain, but we are proud to have people of all races and from all backgrounds in our spiritual family.
Did you not read what it actually said about black skin ?
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
They never 'held' such views nor did they teach them.

From those quotes given, the WT was describing the general view of the time and explaining why they had made certain decisions.

Did not say in those articles that if a woman doesn't do all she can to resist her rapist she has committed fornication?
If its in a WT then it was taught, right?
 
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