Jehovah

[Pegg]

How many rapes do you think start with "i'm going to rape you"? I suspect many rapes start out as an attack. Maybe the woman does not even know it is about rape untill it is.

exactly....so who in their right mind allows themselves to be attacked and just stands there taking it?

No one. Its illogical to think that women dont fight back. Their first response to any attack is defence. Its a natural response found in every living creature and it is what protects us....many women who do put up a fight report that their attacker fled.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

and i think its sick to allow someone to rape you.

Just think about this..... a man comes into your home and says he's going to rape you and you should let him. Do you just say 'ok thats fine with me'?

I doubt it very much. If that were the case, then there would be a lot more rapes occuring because men would be given even more power to do it. You are basically advocating for allowing men to rape whoever and whenever they want and expecting women to let them.

No one allows someone to rape them that why it is rape, but people handle the situation differently out of fear, and a woman should not be comdemned because she didn't do everything to resist.

 

[savagewind]

exactly....so who in their right mind allows themselves to be attacked and just stands there taking it?

No one. Its illogical to think that women dont fight back. Their first response to any attack is defence. Its a natural response found in every living creature and it is what protects us....many women who do put up a fight report that their attacker fled.

I think you keep forgetting the children. Children can hardly fight back and some people freeze when scared. Another group you are leaving out of your "best way" is retarded people.

many women who do put up a fight report that their attacker fled.

According to real crime statistics or The Watchtower?

 

[Pegg]

No one allows someone to rape them that why it is rape, but people handle the situation differently out of fear, and a woman should not be comdemned because she didn't do everything to resist.

no one is condemned for being raped.

 

[savagewind]

no one is condemned for being raped.

I think those disfellowshipped for it would disagree with that.

http://www.freeminds.org/women/raped.htm

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

no one is condemned for being raped.

Yes according to the those WT articles they have committed fornication

 

[JayJayDee]

Jay jay I am aware of the dates, I said passed WTs have disrespected gods name by associating it with falsehoods...

H, this conversation is bordering on ridiculous. No one is accused of fornication in a rape. The battle is not with the elders over this situation but over the person's own self condemnation over not doing enough to prevent the rape. I do not know of a single individual who has been disfellowshipped because she had been raped.

The things that have been raised in these posts are no longer valid arguments. If they were valid at the time of publication and we have publicly amended them, how is it that these things spoken over a hundred years ago are still coming back to haunt us?
The perception at the time was valid for that time. As I said, you are placing today's standards on yesterday's attitudes and conduct. Times change, people's attitudes change too. God's standards don't.

Seriously, aren't you just grasping at straws? Why do you need to? Are we really the dreadful people you are making us out to be?

If the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses are so draconian that they warrant this kind of scrutiny, dredging up stuff printed last century as if it applies today, don't you think it's time to ask what we teach now...today, instead of insinuating that outdated WT articles from another time are still being taught in our congregations at present?

Truth is revealed progressively. The faithful slave tells us what we need to know, when we need to know it. People's sensibilities are tied up in the attitudes of the day, so we have to make allowance for those attitudes and adjust our ministry accordingly. (1 Cor 9:19-23)

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I never insinuated that old WTs still apply today, you may quote where I did

 

[JayJayDee]

I never insinuated that old WTs still apply today, you may quote where I did

Then what was the point of bringing up things we do not teach?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Then what was the point of bringing up things we do not teach?

The point was about disrespecting Gods name, read back.
And you used to teach it, so at that time it was considered truth and spiritual food. The idea that rape could be fornication was taught up to 1989.

 

[savagewind]

Then what was the point of bringing up things we do not teach?

See the thread title? You want us to believe Jehovah is teaching you. Yes or no? Do you or do you not believe if a person leaves the teaching of the society of Jehovah's Witnesses she leaves the teaching of Jehovah?

 

[JayJayDee]

The point was about disrespecting Gods name, read back.
And you used to teach it, so at that time it was considered truth and spiritual food. The idea that rape could be fornication was taught up to 1989.

Again you are placing today's take on yesterdays attitudes and conduct. It doesn't work!

There was no disrespect to God's name at all if the prevailing attitudes were accepted as the "norm" at the time of publication. We claim no infallibility, and we endeavor to keep abreast of all that is the progressive understanding of the spiritual food coming from the faithful slave. If it doesn't sit well with you, I'm sorry but we don't live to please the 'Horrorbles' of this world as if their opinion should dictate our doctrine.

Jesus said that his true disciples would be hated and persecuted by the world....is your attitude unexpected? No, actually, it's very predictable.....

 

[AlexJames1012]

are these really the articles? seriously?


Just as a point on the rape subject.... so are you saying that if someone tried to rape you, you'd stay quiet and comply with it? Who would do that?

The natural reaction, i would imagine, is to try and fight off the attacker and yell out for help. Who would seriously say 'ok, go ahead and rape me, i'll just sit here and be quiet' ???

The point the WT is making is that when under such threat, a woman would try to make noise and try to fight off an attack. However, it does say if she is unconscious then it doesnt apply.

Pegg have you ever heard of someone being "frozen in terror"? There's a difference between being afraid, terrified, panicked and traumatized, and "complying." No woman says "okay go ahead and rape me I'll just sit here and be quiet." Just because she doesn't "try to make noise and try to fight off an attack", doesn't mean she is complying.

Ever consider that not all women are fighters, that some women aren't physically fit enough to fight back, that attacks happen so quickly and so brutally that you don't have time to react, or that a woman can be confused and panic-stricken or so horrified by what's happening that she doesn't react at all? Humans react to terrifying scenarios with fight, flight, or playing dead. During a rape a woman can just shut down as part of the body's survival instinct.

JWs act like the rapist gives her time to collect her wits and figure out a response. "Could you wait a minute while I try to remember what that one Awake magazine said I'm supposed to do right here..." No surprise that you're one of them, your lack of understanding of the brutality of this act, and lack of compassion for the victim of such a horrific and obscene act is typical. After it happens she needs to relive it with three elders so they can determine if she resisted enough to satisfy them or risk being disfellowshipped. Sick.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Again you are placing today's take on yesterdays attitudes and conduct. It doesn't work!

There was no disrespect to God's name at all if the prevailing attitudes were accepted as the "norm" at the time of publication. We claim no infallibility, and we endeavor to keep abreast of all that is the progressive understanding of the spiritual food coming from the faithful slave. If it doesn't sit well with you, I'm sorry but we don't live to please the 'Horrorbles' of this world as if their opinion should dictate our doctrine.

Jesus said that his true disciples would be hated and persecuted by the world....is your attitude unexpected? No, actually, it's very predictable.....

So the WT goes by the world's norm not by inspiration from god

Do I hate what is written in those WTs? yes, do I hate JWs? No

 

[JayJayDee]

See the thread title? You want us to believe Jehovah is teaching you. Yes or no?

Yes! Progressively as it is stated. (Prov 4:18) What we need to know...when we need to know it. It is "food at the proper time". When it is the "proper time" holy spirit reveals it. If an amendment is necessary, again, holy spirit will reveal it.

Do you or do you not believe if a person leaves the teaching of the society of Jehovah's Witnesses she leaves the teaching of Jehovah?

Since Jehovah has always operated through an organized people who unitedly teach his word, uphold his laws and obey his representatives, then leaving the only organization on earth that Christ is using to "preach the good news in all the inhabited earth" before the foretold "end" of the present system of things is tantamount to leaving Jehovah. Just as in the first century Christian congregation, we are not free to believe whatever we like. (2 John 8-11)

We are told to be 'obedient to those taking the lead among us and to submit to them'. (Heb 13:17) These are "keeping a watch over our souls" as ones 'who will render an account'. That is a trifle difficult to do unless you have some who are taking the lead...isn't it?

Who is keeping a watch over your soul?

 

[savagewind]

so horrified by what's happening that she doesn't react at all?

This is what happened to Amy here:

I was so shocked. I simply could not register that he was doing this. He was so FAST. He forced himself on me again, he is so strong, over six feet tall and I am five foot two and not very strong. It was all over in maybe a total of three minutes. He just walked out when he was finished and I just sat down on the toilet, trying to come to terms with what had happened. But I couldn’t. Reality slapped me hard in the face and I just wanted to stop breathing. There was no protective numbness, no compartment in my brain labeled, “Do Not Open”. The absolute terribleness of it all was now inescapable.

I have heard stories of this happening to other women, and I had always thought it would, and could, never happen to me, because I never put myself in a compromising position. But here I was. I realized that I would be asked "Why didn't you scream?" and I can only say that the first time I just couldn't believe what was happening, and I had kept thinking that I could get out of this. And I was terrified that someone would hear, I was so scared and so numb with disbelief.

Now, it had happened again, and again I hadn't screamed. All I could think of at the time was of my children upstairs and "please, God, don't let them stumble onto to this"!

I do not know why the congregation did not help her understand that to go to the police was the right thing to do even though she did not want to cause trouble for the rapist's wife. Unbelieveable.

 

[savagewind]

Yes! Progressively as it is stated. (Prov 4:18) What we need to know...when we need to know it. It is "food at the proper time". When it is the "proper time" holy spirit reveals it. If an amendment is necessary, again, holy spirit will reveal it.

Since Jehovah has always operated through an organized people who unitedly teach his word, uphold his laws and obey his representatives, then leaving the only organization of earth that Christ is using to "preach the good news in all the inhabited earth" before the foretold "end" of the present system of things is tantamount to leaving Jehovah. Just as in the first century Christian congregation, we are not free to believe whatever we like. (2 John 8-11)

We are told to be 'obedient to those taking the lead among us and to submit to them'. (Heb 13:17) These are "keeping a watch over our souls" as ones 'who will render an account'. That is a trifle difficult to do unless you have some who are taking the lead...isn't it?

Who is keeping a watch over your soul?

I think the two fine ladies present here are. Have I not said thank you? Thank you.

 

[JayJayDee]

So the WT goes by the world's norm not by inspiration from god

It is God's word that was written under inspiration not the WT. Understanding of that word is given to Jesus' servants, especially in this "time of the end" (Dan 12:4, 9, 10). It was Jesus who instructed these servants to feed the rest of the household. They are not prophets and claim no infallibly. They just do as they are instructed to do.

Do I hate what is written in those WTs? yes, do I hate JWs? No

That is your choice. Your constant criticism is an indication that you have ill feeling towards JW"s and their teachers. I know why and I'm sorry for that.

Gotta go now....back later.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Pegg have you ever heard of someone being "frozen in terror"? There's a difference between being afraid, terrified, panicked and traumatized, and "complying." No woman says "okay go ahead and rape me I'll just sit here and be quiet." Just because she doesn't "try to make noise and try to fight off an attack", doesn't mean she is complying.

Ever consider that not all women are fighters, that some women aren't physically fit enough to fight back, that attacks happen so quickly and so brutally that you don't have time to react, or that a woman can be confused and panic-stricken or so horrified by what's happening that she doesn't react at all? Humans react to terrifying scenarios with fight, flight, or playing dead. During a rape a woman can just shut down as part of the body's survival instinct.

JWs act like the rapist gives her time to collect her wits and figure out a response. "Could you wait a minute while I try to remember what that one Awake magazine said I'm supposed to do right here..." No surprise that you're one of them, your lack of understanding of the brutality of this act, and lack of compassion for the victim of such a horrific and obscene act is typical. After it happens she needs to relive it with three elders so they can determine if she resisted enough to satisfy them or risk being disfellowshipped. Sick.

Took the words right out of my mouth or off my fingertips. But this isn't anything new from her. Some of the things Pegg says are quite simply shocking in their idiocy or, in this case, callousness.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

It is God's word that was written under inspiration not the WT. Understanding of that word is given to Jesus' servants, especially in this "time of the end" (Dan 12:4, 9, 10). It was Jesus who instructed these servants to feed the rest of the household. They are not prophets and claim no infallibly. They just do as they are instructed to do.



That is your choice. Your constant criticism is an indication that you have ill feeling towards JW"s and their teachers. I know why and I'm sorry for that.

Gotta go now....back later.

I do have ill feeling if what is being taught is wrong, yes even if it is in the past think of all the people who it effected for decades at the time it was being taught. I wonder if the governing body apologises for these things?
It is not only the WT past that gets brought up.
I critise WT because its the only religion I was taught to believe in. I wasn't brought to any other religion. I think people tend to go over what they are familiar with. I don't have Ill feelings towards JWs, if a JWs approached me I wouldn't behave like many people do.
They do not come down to my road though.