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Jesus according to Messianic Judaism

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
hi everyone, i have heard from Shermana that your beliefs about Jesus peace be upon him are that he is an incarnation of the Highest Angel. this is the first time i've heard of this view regarding Jesus so i would like to know more about your beliefs regarding him. can someone please explain this belief in Jesus in a bit more detail.

i am sure i will have more questions after receiving a reply so i will make more questions afterwards if thats ok.
 

Shermana

Heretic
It's not so much the official position of "Messianic Judaism" per se that Jesus is the incarnation of the First Created Being known as "Wisdom" or "The Logos", but it's how I believe personally and how I also believe the original 1st century interpreted the Messianic prophecies and the books such as "Wisdom of Solomon" and what the famous Jewish philosopher Philo believed as well as those whom who he had in mind as an audience who were acquainted with such ideas. It is also highly probable that early non-Jewish Christians as well who shared little of the beliefs with them about the Law such as Justin Martyr had the same "Theology" regarding Jesus's origins as the Supreme Angel. Here is a Trinitarian Christian site, that although has their own spin on the issue, discusses the issue at least:

Jesus: God's Wisdom

Here is the verse from Proverbs, which one could perceive to be purely metaphorical, but is arguably actually literal defining "Wisdom" (aka the "Logos") as the First Creating Personified Entity, separate from the Creator as an independent Mind/Being who serves as a sort of Co-Creator:

Proverbs 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him...
In this case, Tektonics is saying its a metaphor personified.....but going by "Wisdom of Solomon" and Philo's interpretations, it seems the Ancient Jews did NOT regard this as purely metaphorical but an actual created being, the Firstborn among Creation. So that's where I diverge with Tektonics on this interpretation for a start.

"Wisdom is intended to be understood as an attribute or heavenly servant of the sole God Yahweh to whom he has delegated certain powers with regard to his relations with mankind."
I'll go with the "Heavenly servant" definition, with "attribute" defined as "specifically unique entity who serves as a personified (literally) attribute.

Tektonics admits here that whether it's a "Separate person" is "up to debate" at least here, and from there, if they acknowledge the Logos is in fact a "Separate person", they try to shoehorn the concept into their convoluted Trinity doctrine with the usual wordplay of what "person" means.

Dunn puts it succinctly: "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus. The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making , 167. This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word: thus in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.
This term became a periphrasis for God; whether it could have been reckoned as a separate person, as in Christian Trinitarianism, is a matter of debate.
From here the article tries to explain ancient Judaism from a "Trinitarian" perspective (though in case it would be a "Binarian" at best), but they at least admit the idea that there was more than just metaphorical personification going on.

Here is the idea of "Wisdom" being defacto created from Sirach/Eccliasticus.
Ecclesiasticus 1:1-4 All wisdom cometh from the Lord, and is with him for ever. The sand of the sea, and the drops of the rain, And the days of eternity who shall number? The height of the heaven and the breadth of the earth And the deep and wisdom, who shall search them out? Wisdom hath been created before all things, And the understanding of prudence from everlasting.
I came forth from the mouth of the Most High, And covered the earth as a mist. I dwelt in high places, And my throne is in the pillar of the cloud. Alone I compassed the circuit of the heaven, And walked in the depth of the abyss. (Ecclesiasticus 24:3-5)
He created me from the beginning of the world, And to the end I shall not fail. (Ecclesiasticus 24:4)
It becomes more and more plain that the Jews did in fact regard "Wisdom" (Logos) as a Created entity and not just a metaphorical description of the concept.

Now we get to Wisdom of Solomon, where it becomes really pronounced, and where all of the Trinitarian/Modalist arguments to portray Wisdom as merely a metaphor really start to break down:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]7: 22: for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me. For in her there is a spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, mobile, clear, unpolluted, distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen, irresistible, [/SIZE][/FONT]
The fashioner of all things? Okay could just be metaphorical still...(even though its specifically called a created thing elsewhere) going on...Let's see 7:26
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]26: For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness. [/SIZE][/FONT]
Clearly now, "image of his goodness" is looking more and more like an actual entity rather than a deep praise of the concept of Wisdom in itself. A "spotless mirror". It gets more complicated around 10:18-19.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]18: She brought them over the Red Sea, and led them through deep waters;
19: but she drowned their enemies, and cast them up from the depth of the sea. [/SIZE][/FONT]
"Wisdom" is now responsible for the Red Sea forming back together after the Israelites had crossed to drown the Egyptians? How does that work in the metaphorical description of Wisdom? Sounds like "Wisdom" is some kind of acting agent of the Divine Will, like how angels are such agents of Divine will.







Moving on to Tektonics admitting what Philo said (with their own spin)

Philo calls Wisdom (which he also refers to as the logos) the "image (eikon) of God," refers to the Wisdom of God as the one through whom the universe came into being, and describes Wisdom as God's "firstborn son," as neither unbegotten like God or begotten like men, as Light and as "the very shadow of God." He regarded the logos as one of several attributes of God which he referred to collectively as "powers," with the logos as the chief power in the hierarchy.
Hmmm, it appears Philo referred to Wisdom as the "leader of the hierarchy of G-d's powers"....it's getting pretty hard to see it as a purely metaphorical idea when we have Philo calling it the "Firstborn Son" and not unbegotten (not being begotten can imply a spiritual creation rather than earthly).

So we can see that the idea of a "Supreme Angel" and "First Created Soul" who is a "Spotless Mirror" and "Image" of the Creator was a standard Ancient Israelite idea, however, unlike the Trinity (And its ugly stepsister Modalism which most Trinitarians actually believe in without realizing), this concept did not involve the "Logos"/"Wisdom" being the Creator Himself, or even an undivided part, but a completely separate and unique being. The representative, but not the original.
 
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To me, he is Messiah ben Yosef, the first of two Messianic figures, who set the course for his People, and the Age they live in.


May Messiah ben David come soon, and usher a new Age, an Age of Peace...

Thanks for that, it clears up a few things. I think that thine is probably correct.:angel2:

I always like simple answers.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
is the belief in Jesus peace be upon him what sets apart Messianic Judaism from the other Jewish believers who do not accept Jesus?
 

Shermana

Heretic
is the belief in Jesus peace be upon him what sets apart Messianic Judaism from the other Jewish believers who do not accept Jesus?

It is the main part, which coincides with the other parts. We tend to reject the Rabbinical interpretations and Talmudic additions in a similar way that Jesus rejected the Pharisees' doctrines, though I'm finding that there may be a lot of gems in the Talmud that coincide with what could have been authentic ancient Israelite beliefs found in the Apocryphal writings like Pseudo-philo. Even various Islamic beliefs coincide with certain Rabbinical teachings, though just some.
 

sinner2saint

New Member
according to the Bible, yeshua (Jesus ) is the Son of the most high God
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one"
Jesus admitted several times He is the Son of God
So Jew's and muslims and can not say that he is a prophet because He admitted he is God
Yeshua came down to earth to die for ALL people to Take away all sins for those who call him Lord ( John 3:16)
He loves you so much!
If you have a Bible read the Gospel of John
HE ADMITS SEVERAL TIMES HE IS THE SON OF GOD...
 

Shermana

Heretic
This is not a thread to start a Trinitarian debate, but saying "I and the Father are one" does not mean Jesus said he is God. Are you a Messianic Jew, Sinner2saint? Jesus said "Let them be one as we are one". Does that mean he invited the disciples to become part of God too? Obviously not. So he said "let them be one AS we are one". That means "I and the Father are one" does not mean he is saying they are the same being, but the same mindset and purpose.

If you want to debate the issue, here is a thread for it, where this issue and many other Trintiarian claims have been debunked multiple times.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/61330-did-jesus-say-he-god.html

Every place where it is claimed that it says Jesus said he was God, it is a textual and grammatical controversy. For instance, John 1:1c should read "And the word was A god" like in the NWT. Likewise with John 8:58, which is also oft cited, the use of "I am" doesn't make sense gramatically for Jesus to be saying "I am I am", and the Name itself is not really "I am", it is "I shall be".

Yeshua came down to earth to die for ALL people to Take away all sins for those who call him Lord ( John 3:16)
What do you think of Matthew 7:22-23? Calling someone "lord" is not necessarily the same thing as the fullness of what "believe in" entails, the word Pisteuon means more or less "Be convinced" than "blindly believe". Jesus said you must "Strive to enter the narrow gate". Obviously "Believing in" Jesus involves a whole lot more than just calling him lord. And I'm sure you're aware that it's about calling Jesus "lord" in lower case, like how David was called "lord".
 
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LionofJuda

Member
Shalom! Messianic Judaism in general has a different look on Jesus (I stand corrected) if I am in error. First, Messianics say for instance the group I belong, no longer call the Savior as Jesus because it is not his true Name, His true Name is Yeshua. Jesus some say is the English translation of the Name. But we do not believe this because hebrew Names has their meanings like Yeshua which means salvation. So why translate the Name? My belief is Yeshua is not God otherwise this will deviate from Monotheism which is meant by the word ECHAD in the Shema "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohinu Adonai Echad".
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Welcome to RF!

I'm just about the only MJ active on the forum at this time, though some do come & go from time to time.

It would be nice to not be the only one.... ;)
 

LionofJuda

Member
according to the Bible, yeshua (Jesus ) is the Son of the most high God
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one"
Jesus admitted several times He is the Son of God
So Jew's and muslims and can not say that he is a prophet because He admitted he is God
Yeshua came down to earth to die for ALL people to Take away all sins for those who call him Lord ( John 3:16)
He loves you so much!
If you have a Bible read the Gospel of John
HE ADMITS SEVERAL TIMES HE IS THE SON OF GOD...

Shalom! Yes, Yeshua is the Son of Elohim but is does not mean He is Elohim. Why? because all those who follow Elohim are also called sons of Elohim. Does this made them Elohim? No. In John 10:30, this does not prove that Yeshua is Elohim also. This shows only that Yeshua came in His Father's Name. kindly read the whole context. His prayer to His desciples says that "may they be one as we are one". The last part of John 1;1 "and the Word was God" should have been translated as "and the Word was god" or elohim with small leter g. The word elohim is used in the Bible to address angel and kings. Did Yeshua ever admitted that He is God in the New Testament? We can not find even a single verse. But in the Torah, HaShem admitted for several times that He is the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 

LionofJuda

Member
Welcome to RF!

I'm just about the only MJ active on the forum at this time, though some do come & go from time to time.

It would be nice to not be the only one.... ;)

Shalom! Zardoz. When I just lately went back into the Forum it is your name that I remember at once especially your profile picture. How long have you been a member with this Forum?
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Shalom! Zardoz. When I just lately went back into the Forum it is your name that I remember at once especially your profile picture. How long have you been a member with this Forum?
I was lurking around most of 2008 but decided to actually join Jan. 2009
 

LionofJuda

Member
Shalom! Messianic Judaism are divided on their beliefs in Yeshua. That is why I posted a question: "If Judaism is Monotheistic, why did some messianic jews believe Yeshua as also God aside from the Almighty God Hashem." Some Messianic groups are trinitarian, some are Oneness, some are binitarian, but the group I belong is Monotheistic but we believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. This faith I lately discovered is somewhat : "Arianism"- the belief in one and only God yet acknowledged or accept Yeshua as the Messiah.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Mod Post: This is the Messianic Judaism DIR.
Please do not post in the DIR unless you belong to Messianic Judaism.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Shalom! Yes, Yeshua is the Son of Elohim but is does not mean He is Elohim. Why? because all those who follow Elohim are also called sons of Elohim. Does this made them Elohim? No. In John 10:30, this does not prove that Yeshua is Elohim also. This shows only that Yeshua came in His Father's Name. kindly read the whole context. His prayer to His desciples says that "may they be one as we are one". The last part of John 1;1 "and the Word was God" should have been translated as "and the Word was god" or elohim with small leter g. The word elohim is used in the Bible to address angel and kings. Did Yeshua ever admitted that He is God in the New Testament? We can not find even a single verse. But in the Torah, HaShem admitted for several times that He is the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I like your paragraph he did say;
If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now you do know Him and have seen Him.” 8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.
Which I believe part of another part of scriptures
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
I like your paragraph he did say;
If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now you do know Him and have seen Him.” 8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.
Which I believe part of another part of scriptures
Also I like this one almost like Jesus is being a funny smart ***; lol
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Also I like this one almost like Jesus is being a funny smart ***; lol

Did you not read this moderator admonition? -

Mod Post: This is the Messianic Judaism DIR.
Please do not post in the DIR unless you belong to Messianic Judaism.

Or are you saying you are a "Messianic Jew."
 
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